New guy needs help

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puddle pirate
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:44 pm

New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:57 pm

New guy here. My son told me to ask for help. My son and I are working on my 1973 Super. He started the project but can not help me finish at this time. His job went to 7 day work week. I have a car show on Sunday and can not get the darn thing started.

1776 engine Micro squirt, GSXR 600 throttle bodies fitted with Ford 300 6 cyl injectors. crank wheel trigger 36 tooth. MAP sensor and air temp sensor, narrow band O2 I still have to configure the oil temp sensor. He said to look on this forum for that. I currently have no crank signal. I have the crank sensor from Dodge neon. I am also getting this error on the Tuner Studio MS that says:

Settings configuration Error!
Tuner studio is online Correct settings and power cycle controller
Reported setting error
MAP phase detection requires 1,2cyl, dual+missing, wasted-COP and timed-min MAP

I have found one area that had the timed-min MAP in the MAP Sample Settings. I have not found anything else. I have been working on it for 2 days.

I either need some help with fixing this or someone that has simmilar set up and can help with file of initial tune.

Thanks

John
Powhatan, VA
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

Clonebug
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Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: New guy needs help

Post by Clonebug » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:01 pm

You could always pm Mario Velotta for help.

He does this stuff for a living and sometimes paying a little money for professional help is worth it.
I have him do all my soldering and also have him build the wiring harness for me... it makes it quite painless and doesn't cost much more.
He even has the capability to connect to your engine over the internet if you have wireless available in your garage....
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

puddle pirate
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:44 pm

Re: New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:55 pm

Thanks. I am starting again in the morning. Fresh start. Going to try from the beginning again. I tested crank sensor and need a new one. Wasn't sure if it was good to begin with. Got it from my son and it was used. A friend said to start again with a fresh program and begin again. Probably something in the set up for the MAP.

I will give him a shout tomorrow if I get nothing accomplished by noon.

Thanks again for the help. I really want this car done for this show. Over 250 cars entered. British and European cars. Just want it to drive off the trailer and be shared with others. Classics on The Green, New Kent Winery, VA.
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

Clonebug
Posts: 2957
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: New guy needs help

Post by Clonebug » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:01 pm

The Crank sensor seem to give the most trouble on new setups.

It is very important to have it correct for not only timing but also so you don't get resets with the ECU.

Gap is usually critical and so is tooth lead for timing accuracy. Brand of VR or Hall sensor can give some fits too.

Mario uses a twisted pair wire setup that seems to give very little trouble and will cancel noise in the system.

I use his wiring and it is trouble free.

Make sure your wiring isn't picking up noise from somewhere like the coil signal wires or something to that extent.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

jhoefer
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by jhoefer » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:51 am

puddle pirate wrote:I am also getting this error on the Tuner Studio MS that says:

Settings configuration Error!
Tuner studio is online Correct settings and power cycle controller
Reported setting error
MAP phase detection requires 1,2cyl, dual+missing, wasted-COP and timed-min MAP

I have found one area that had the timed-min MAP in the MAP Sample Settings. I have not found anything else. I have been working on it for 2 days.
Go to Ignition Options -> Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder and change your "Cam Input" to whatever you might be using instead of "MAP sensor". Assuming you are even using a cam sensor otherwise you'll have to change the ignition settings to match whatever setup your engine actually uses.

You may also want to go to Basic/Load Settings -> MAP Sample Settings and change the "MAP Sample Method" to "Use Event Average". The other option could be used if you find your MAP readings are too highly variable to allow good running, such as if you were only sampling MAP from only one intake runner instead of running all 4 of your individual intake runner's vacuum ports into a common vacuum accumulator.

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Piledriver
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by Piledriver » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:37 am

You won't see anything with a config error flashing.

MAP sensor for cam sync only works on 2 cylinders like a Harley or such.
If you want full sequential, you need a second cam sensor or a single with cam speed missing tooth wheel.

Select "semi-sequential" or untimed batch fuel and waste spark modes until you get a cam sync sensor.
Sequential spark or fuel are not an option at this time.
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I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

puddle pirate
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:09 am

I changed the settings and got rid of that part of the problem. I still have no crank signal. I tried twisting the pairs. Got a new crank sensor. I will have to get my son's oscilloscope and see if I actually have a signal out of the sensor before going any further. I may have to change my mount or use a different sensor with that trigger wheel.

I am using the 36 tooth 6.5 inch wheel from DIY auto and using a crank sensor from a 2005 Dodge Neon. I have a good steady 5v reference, a good ground and the return signal to the ECU is hooked to OPTO-IN+

There is a 1.2mm gap. I have tried a bunch of settings.

Image
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

jhoefer
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by jhoefer » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:18 pm

puddle pirate wrote:I changed the settings and got rid of that part of the problem. I still have no crank signal. I tried twisting the pairs. Got a new crank sensor. I will have to get my son's oscilloscope and see if I actually have a signal out of the sensor before going any further. I may have to change my mount or use a different sensor with that trigger wheel.

I am using the 36 tooth 6.5 inch wheel from DIY auto and using a crank sensor from a 2005 Dodge Neon. I have a good steady 5v reference, a good ground and the return signal to the ECU is hooked to OPTO-IN+

There is a 1.2mm gap. I have tried a bunch of settings.
I believe the Neon's Hall-effect crank sensor you are using needs a 1k pullup resistor added to function correctly. So you would need to connect:
MS TPS VREF (+5V) -> sensor pin 1 (power)
MS sensor ground -> sensor pin 2 (ground)
MS "VR-" -> sensor pin 3 (signal)

then add the pullup resistor connecting the power and signal wires together.
MS TPS VREF (+5V) -> 1000 ohm resistor -> sensor pin 3 (signal)

If it's easier to visualize, there's a wiring diagram at the end of section 6.10 in http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsqu ... re-3.4.pdf

You'll notice the sensor signal wire is connected to "VR-", not "opto in+". Opto In is normally for a fuel-only install pulling an RPM signal off of a coil, which doesn't sound like what you are doing but I could be wrong.

For a Hall sensor, you don't need an oscilloscope to check the output, just a multimeter. The output should be 5V when no tooth is in front of the sensor and 0V when there is a tooth in front of the sensor. This works at zero rpm, so the engine doesn't have to be turning to check the signal, unlike when using a VR sensor.

puddle pirate
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:44 pm

Re: New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:56 pm

That is exactly the setup we are using. I did not wire it with resistor or going to the correct pin. I will have to make the corrections and try it. I went to the car show anyway and enjoyed the day even without having the car done. Thanks for the help.
Last edited by puddle pirate on Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

sacr32
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by sacr32 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:56 pm

puddle pirate wrote:I changed the settings and got rid of that part of the problem. I still have no crank signal. I tried twisting the pairs. Got a new crank sensor. I will have to get my son's oscilloscope and see if I actually have a signal out of the sensor before going any further. I may have to change my mount or use a different sensor with that trigger wheel.

I am using the 36 tooth 6.5 inch wheel from DIY auto and using a crank sensor from a 2005 Dodge Neon. I have a good steady 5v reference, a good ground and the return signal to the ECU is hooked to OPTO-IN+

There is a 1.2mm gap. I have tried a bunch of settings.

Image
Wheel doesn't look centered.

puddle pirate
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:07 pm

It is centered. Done at machine shop. 0.01 runout.
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

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Piledriver
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Re: New guy needs help

Post by Piledriver » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:38 pm

Is the sensor centered horizontally on the wheel? (wheel lines up with center of sensor?)
Can't tell from the picture.
The active area is only the center ~1/4", if that.
(ran one from a 2005 neon briefly, used, had issues reading my original flywheel "crank trigger wheel" setup)

You should be able to "see" the sensor working while rotating the crank by hand, simply using a voltmeter.

Get the gap tighter.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

puddle pirate
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:44 pm

Re: New guy needs help

Post by puddle pirate » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:32 am

I will have to try to tighten the gap. Sensor is centered. I may just order another sensor from DIY. They have one that is easier to adjust and they say it works with this trigger wheel. I am going to see if I can borrow the oscilloscope from my son this week.
John
1973 Super Beetle
1980 Triumph Spitfire
1987 Wrangler

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