MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:17 am

Found out my gas mileage, and in the process, ran out of gas :lol:
The dang vibrator went out in my fuel gauge system, so I was just winging it for a while, assuming I was getting upper 20s for MPG...apparently that isn't the case, and I'm getting about 24ish (mostly highway).
I still haven't gotten any fine tuning on the MS system, but now that I know my mileage, it really makes me want to get it better. Granted, the motor runs great, but I think it can be a bunch better. With the dual 34ICTs that I had on it, I was getting 30mpg easy. I don't hammer on the throttle too much messing with boost yet, so I figure with the refined fueling and ignition system, I should be getting somewhere around the 30s.
It makes it difficult when you don't have a tuning buddy to ride shotgun.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by ps2375 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:16 am

Why do you need a "tuning Buddy"? You have MS3, either data log and adjust from that or better yet, set your target AFR table and if you have TS, use the autotune while you drive. Refine your spark table and autotune some more. The hard part is to get it where you don't need or want to tune it more.

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:52 pm

kangaboy wrote: The dang vibrator went out in my fuel gauge system, so I was just winging it for a while
I think this is what they call a first world problem :mrgreen:

My 60 has never had a speedo, and that is it. Goes all the way to 80mph too!
Gas gauge is my cell phone light in the 80mm tank opening. Upgrading with my new car though. It has a 100mm wide gas cap. Should be real easy to see into that one :lol:

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:22 pm

Chip Birks wrote: I think this is what they call a first world problem :mrgreen:
HA!
ps2375 wrote:Why do you need a "tuning Buddy"? You have MS3, either data log and adjust from that or better yet, set your target AFR table and if you have TS, use the autotune while you drive. Refine your spark table and autotune some more. The hard part is to get it where you don't need or want to tune it more.
I just thought it was easier to do the tuning while driving, for real time effects. But I haven't had the opportunity to do that. I do have the full version of TS though, so I should be taking more advantage of that. I need to get more experience with it. Just takes time.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by ps2375 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:39 pm

TS autotune IS real-time, much faster than a person looking at the puter screen would be.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:31 pm

Yeah, I'm just nervous about changing the spark and fuel tables from my "safe" tune I have now. I believe I have my spark table at a pretty good spot, but by AFR Table needs some good tweaking. I pretty much just have it at 12.5:1 everywhere. I think that if I raise it to ~15:1 in my light cruising areas, I can lower my head temps and raise my MPG...just makes me nervous about messing with things.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by ps2375 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:57 pm

You save your current tune, and then commence tweaking. If you don't like the results, adjust that or reload your saved tune. You should be fairly safe below 90-100Kpa, once into boost, that is were things can get touchy. A knock sensor can assist with safely tuning or time spent on a dyno will nail down the spark table. If I'm not mistaken, MS3 has some builtin knock sensing? After looking, nope, it takes an input from a module, like this one: http://www.viatrack.ca/

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:23 pm

ps2375 wrote:You save your current tune, and then commence tweaking. If you don't like the results, adjust that or reload your saved tune. You should be fairly safe below 90-100Kpa, once into boost, that is were things can get touchy. A knock sensor can assist with safely tuning or time spent on a dyno will nail down the spark table. If I'm not mistaken, MS3 has some builtin knock sensing? After looking, nope, it takes an input from a module, like this one: http://www.viatrack.ca/
Ms3 has an optional internal knock sensor that is much better than the viatrack unit. 2 channels too if you want it. Just have to buy the module and solder it in.

Ms3-Pro comes with it built it.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by ps2375 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:29 pm

Chip Birks wrote: Ms3 has an optional internal knock sensor that is much better than the viatrack unit. 2 channels too if you want it. Just have to buy the module and solder it in.

Ms3-Pro comes with it built it.
I thought I had seen something for MS3.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:01 pm

ps2375 wrote:
Chip Birks wrote: Ms3 has an optional internal knock sensor that is much better than the viatrack unit. 2 channels too if you want it. Just have to buy the module and solder it in.

Ms3-Pro comes with it built it.
I thought I had seen something for MS3.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3 ... odule-kit/

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:29 pm

Well I have to say I saved my "Safe Tune" and went to tweaking.
My AFR table was generally 12.5 across the board, with a little spike in the engine decel area. Read a few other topics by Chip, Clone and Pile, and have a better idea on what changing it does. One problem I had was a slow speed bucking in second and third gear. Usually in traffic, or engine braking. I read that was likely due to a lean area on the AFR table...and it was. I richened it up a bit and it went away. Sweet. I also noted that Clone said he runs 14.1:1 in cruise areas. I adjusted my highway cruise areas on the map accordingly. There was no real change in the way it ran, but I'm assuming it will help my MPG? I left the spark table the way it was, and just did all my changes on the AFR. I have some blending, and more tweaking to do on the way to/from work tomorrow, but wanted to post them up for future reference.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by panel » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:34 pm

Not a pro tuner at all here but I'd run a little leaner in that 30 KPA line all across the RPM range (decel area) and I'd be curious to see what the peak/valley looks like at the 2000-2600 and the 55-80 KPA area. Can you post a 3D view. I'd try to smoothen that out a little.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:41 am

Need to lean it out and add timing at cruise... ~stoich area runs hottest.
You can improve your mileage and drop CHT 50-75F easily.
I target 14.7:1 in winter running E85 or it overcools. when it really gets cold I run regular at stoich or it never gets to temp. I have a working stock thermostat setup.

Note I'm running a T4 so you probably need a few degrees more timing.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:25 am

panel wrote:Not a pro tuner at all here but I'd run a little leaner in that 30 KPA line all across the RPM range (decel area) ...
I originally had it a lot leaner, like ~16:1 in the 1000-2500rpm range. It had an angry growl to it on decel, like the big V8 mustangs, but it got old. I richened it up, and it went away, and was a lot more tolerable. Is there an ill affect to having it run richer/leaner?
Piledriver wrote:Need to lean it out and add timing at cruise... ~stoich area runs hottest.
You can improve your mileage and drop CHT 50-75F easily.
So stoich is 14:1, or 14.7:7? I have seen both mentioned, depending on the ethanol blend of gas we use.
Either way, I understand its the "no" zone of running if seeking lower head temps. I will bump up my cruise AFR to >15:1 and see what happens from there...and add some more timing.
I just get so hung up on having it jammed into my head for the last 15 years that 30-32* max mechanical advance is where these motors should run or they will blow up, that it makes it hard for me to mess with the ignition table, "searching" for the right numbers...
But we are making progress!! Thanks for the insight everyone.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:19 am

Stock vacuum advance distributors will advance into the 40s if setup correct, at least that's what I've heard. It's the "mechanical only" crowd that says to limit to 32°, and that's simply because those distributors can't pick and choose what they do depending on load and rpm, they are just setup to be safe at peak rpm and that's it. Everything else is a compromise, just like with a carb.

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