MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4003
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Avoid the MTXL, it's garbage.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Here's an article from Alan To at 14point7.com about calibrating a WB analog out vs. the MS analog in, good to see someone run with an idea, I have been trying to explain this for ages.
The details are Spartan2 and SLC gauge WBO2 specific, but you can do the same, even by driving the sensor controller to its limits and tweaking the values so min/max are correct.
http://www.14point7.com/blogs/news/1653 ... megasquirt
It looks more complex than it is, but it is vital to get it correct.
The details are Spartan2 and SLC gauge WBO2 specific, but you can do the same, even by driving the sensor controller to its limits and tweaking the values so min/max are correct.
http://www.14point7.com/blogs/news/1653 ... megasquirt
It looks more complex than it is, but it is vital to get it correct.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
I will be ordering my MS3X board and wideband o2 this week.
In regard to the FI system, I have been doing a lot of reading on other people projects. I will likely skip the Mexi FI setup, and go with something that will be more compatable with a bigger motor and allow for more options down the road. The CBPerformance end castings seem like a pretty safe bet, so I'll pick them up when the time comes. This all kinda corrolates to the MS system that I am building, because I need a little help on what is required as far as the throttle body that I pick. I am thinking anything between 42-50mm will be ok, with a turbo on a 1776 and stock heads, (and correct me on the size if I am wrong) but what options will I want to look for? Is there only a TPS on the throttle bodies? I have the MS3v3, I want to take advantage of it with a better throttle body if available. I still wanna try and find a good one from a junk yard for ~$50, but didn't know if there were more options available on different types of throttle bodies.
In regard to the FI system, I have been doing a lot of reading on other people projects. I will likely skip the Mexi FI setup, and go with something that will be more compatable with a bigger motor and allow for more options down the road. The CBPerformance end castings seem like a pretty safe bet, so I'll pick them up when the time comes. This all kinda corrolates to the MS system that I am building, because I need a little help on what is required as far as the throttle body that I pick. I am thinking anything between 42-50mm will be ok, with a turbo on a 1776 and stock heads, (and correct me on the size if I am wrong) but what options will I want to look for? Is there only a TPS on the throttle bodies? I have the MS3v3, I want to take advantage of it with a better throttle body if available. I still wanna try and find a good one from a junk yard for ~$50, but didn't know if there were more options available on different types of throttle bodies.
-
- Posts: 4719
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
CB Performance has discontinued the FI Endpieces that fit the stock intake. They have also destroyed the tooling so there will never be another set made.
Your only option is their high flow endpieces that have a 2 inch inlet. You will have to make your own center piece anyways so you can use any TB you want.
Your only option is their high flow endpieces that have a 2 inch inlet. You will have to make your own center piece anyways so you can use any TB you want.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
So are the end pieces that CB sells too big (too much flow) for a 1776 with stock head and a ~46mm TB?
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Just got my latest shipment of items. And upon further review...I accidently ordere the MS3X wire loom twice...So now I have to send on back and get the right one.
Also wanted to ask my TB question again. Is the 3 wire TPS the only item that I will need on the TB? I am going to the pick-n-pull this weekend and want to get a nice TB. I just didn't know if I will be able to run any additional items using the MS3, or if TPS was all I needed. And as far as size, is there a science to getting the correct one? 40mm vs 55mm on a 1776cc turbo'd motor?
Also wanted to ask my TB question again. Is the 3 wire TPS the only item that I will need on the TB? I am going to the pick-n-pull this weekend and want to get a nice TB. I just didn't know if I will be able to run any additional items using the MS3, or if TPS was all I needed. And as far as size, is there a science to getting the correct one? 40mm vs 55mm on a 1776cc turbo'd motor?
- risk
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:43 pm
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
I am running a ford throttle body and it's been great. Very simple and compact, 3 wire TPS. They use the same 4 bolt flange bolt pattern on lots of different models.
While you are at the junkyard, think about snagging some sensors and plugs.
EV1 fuel injector plugs, GM coolant temp sensor, dodge intake air temp sensor, etc.
Threaded sensors only.. the ones that just pop into the intake pipe are useless once you go turbo.
While you are at the junkyard, think about snagging some sensors and plugs.
EV1 fuel injector plugs, GM coolant temp sensor, dodge intake air temp sensor, etc.
Threaded sensors only.. the ones that just pop into the intake pipe are useless once you go turbo.
- woodsbuggy1
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 pm
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Just curious, what problems have you had with the MTXL? I have been running one for over a year with zero issues.
Thanks Kenric
Thanks Kenric
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.
- Devastator
- Posts: 3493
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:51 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Need, Yes. Want, no. I'd strongly suggest getting one with a functioning PMW style IAC as well. Mine is off of a Dodge Neon and works great!kangaboy wrote:Is the 3 wire TPS the only item that I will need on the TB?
Those bastards!Clonebug wrote:CB Performance has discontinued the FI Endpieces that fit the stock intake.
Devastator's Build Thread
Sandrail
2.4 liter, supercharged Chevy Ecotec
"If everything seems under control, you're just not
going fast enough."
Mario Andretti
Sandrail
2.4 liter, supercharged Chevy Ecotec
"If everything seems under control, you're just not
going fast enough."
Mario Andretti
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
I will be using Mario's cam-sensor when the new batch comes out (couple of months), so in the meantime, can I use just the crank trigger and do batch fire and fuel? While I know I CAN do this, the real question I am asking, is if it will be an easy adaptation to put the Cam-Sync on and go full sequential when the time comes.
Also, got the same little turbo that was mentioned in the Turbo Super thread in the Forced Induction board, a throttle body from a 1.8 Hyundai, tps, coolant sensor, and IAT sensor from a Neon. Got it all from Pick-A-Part for $75...that place is super fun. First time going for me.
Any more sensors that I would benefit having? I already got the Wideband O2 that Pile recommended earlier.
Almost done gathering my parts. Soon I can begin assembly.
Also, got the same little turbo that was mentioned in the Turbo Super thread in the Forced Induction board, a throttle body from a 1.8 Hyundai, tps, coolant sensor, and IAT sensor from a Neon. Got it all from Pick-A-Part for $75...that place is super fun. First time going for me.
Any more sensors that I would benefit having? I already got the Wideband O2 that Pile recommended earlier.
Almost done gathering my parts. Soon I can begin assembly.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
kangaboy wrote:... the real question I am asking, is if it will be an easy adaptation to put the Cam-Sync on and go full sequential when the time comes.
As long as you remember to preset the pots, set the jumpers and run the wire in the harness, it will be almost plug and play.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Gathering Parts
I have looked over the STF for a few topics on coils, but haven't had luck in finding my answer. I had originally planned on COP for coils, but i think i changed my mind and wouldnt mind having coils and wires. I saw the LS2 coils and holders that Mario sells, but that seems a little steep as far as pricing for my first project. If they are the best option for my set up, I'll bite the bullet and grab them up, but i dont think I need top of the line quality for this set up.
What are other options I can look into? CNP would be cool, or even the IGN4 box that Mario sells would be fine. Is there something I can dig up at the Pick-n-Pull that would be best?
EDIT: I found this section in the MegaManual and I'm reading over it now to find my answer. Feel free to comment with coil system that works better for this type of set up.
ReEDIT: Ok, after reading the manual and megasquirt forums I'm even more confused. Some coils have internal igniters, some need exteral 12v power sources...some are logic, some are non-logic. What the heck am I looking for if i just want to have a coil that can be hooked to my MS3x with no other external power source? Can I just go to a Pick-N-Pull and get 4 COP off of a VW Golf or similar and have them hooked directly to the MS and be good to go?
What are other options I can look into? CNP would be cool, or even the IGN4 box that Mario sells would be fine. Is there something I can dig up at the Pick-n-Pull that would be best?
EDIT: I found this section in the MegaManual and I'm reading over it now to find my answer. Feel free to comment with coil system that works better for this type of set up.
ReEDIT: Ok, after reading the manual and megasquirt forums I'm even more confused. Some coils have internal igniters, some need exteral 12v power sources...some are logic, some are non-logic. What the heck am I looking for if i just want to have a coil that can be hooked to my MS3x with no other external power source? Can I just go to a Pick-N-Pull and get 4 COP off of a VW Golf or similar and have them hooked directly to the MS and be good to go?
- trbugman
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Gathering Parts
First off, stay far away from the MegaManual, it has no usable information regarding MS3 which uses MSExtra firmware.
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms3manuals/
This is the only manual for MS3.
Here in the manual they start listing recommended coils. If you want to control it from the MS3X you will want to look for a logic coil. The basic way these operate is you provide 12 volt and ground to the coil and the ECU sends 5 volts to the coils logic circuit which then starts charging the coil. When the ECU stops sending the 5 volts to the logic circuit it stops charging and the coil fires.
I don't know of any coils to look for in junk yards except the ones listed in the manual and the LS1, LS2 D580 and the LS2 D585 coils I'm running. I've read the the 4 tower VW coils are suppose to pack a punch. They list the part numbers of the coils in the manual. With a little searching you should be able to get a list of cars to be on the look out for in junk yards.
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms3manuals/
This is the only manual for MS3.
Here in the manual they start listing recommended coils. If you want to control it from the MS3X you will want to look for a logic coil. The basic way these operate is you provide 12 volt and ground to the coil and the ECU sends 5 volts to the coils logic circuit which then starts charging the coil. When the ECU stops sending the 5 volts to the logic circuit it stops charging and the coil fires.
I don't know of any coils to look for in junk yards except the ones listed in the manual and the LS1, LS2 D580 and the LS2 D585 coils I'm running. I've read the the 4 tower VW coils are suppose to pack a punch. They list the part numbers of the coils in the manual. With a little searching you should be able to get a list of cars to be on the look out for in junk yards.
2333(103x70) Type 4 DTM MS3+X on 73 Karmann Ghia ignition only with LS2 truck coils firing in sequential, fuel next.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Gathering Parts
GM LS2 coils are a lot more common in junkyards.
You can probably pick up a set of truck coils (have heatsink on driver) for $50 or less, on ebay even, if you can find them in a JY directly even less. Make sure to get the pigtails, and nail the injectors and their harness as well, you never know...
The "normal" LS2 coils seem to be easier to mount, still looking for a neat mount for the truck coils I have.
You can probably pick up a set of truck coils (have heatsink on driver) for $50 or less, on ebay even, if you can find them in a JY directly even less. Make sure to get the pigtails, and nail the injectors and their harness as well, you never know...
The "normal" LS2 coils seem to be easier to mount, still looking for a neat mount for the truck coils I have.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Gathering Parts
I have sourced some CBPerformace end castings, thanks to a fellow STF'er, and received my MS3 harness from DIY. I have also in the mean time ordered the hide-away turbo header from CBPerformance, along with and exhaust flange that will have to be welded to my little turbo, and some new exhaust gaskets. So, next on the agenda is the local pick and pull for some L2S coils along with some injectors. After that, all I will need is the crank fire system and some fuel rails. Getting close now