MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3
Hakko makes some nice stuff, the fx-100 uses the same tech the metcal does.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Got the stim and main board completed and the beginning tests look good. Its getting to the point where i have all the items that were supposed to be set aside and used later if they are needed. Below is where i am currently in the set up of my board, and i don't know if i should, or should not be installing the additional components...because i don't know if i have multiple spark outlets, or what a 2 wire PWM idle is, etc.
Little help?
25) LEDs. For most installs, you can proceed and install the LEDs. Only in situations where you are DIYing
many spark outputs and want to fit an additional connector should they be omitted.
26) Idle valves:
The MS3 card has support for a 4 wire stepper idle valve built-in, just requiring the five jumpers on the
mainboard in step 23.
If using 2 wire PWM idle, you are advised to use the MS3X 'Idle' output as this is ready to use.
This is covered in section 3.5.4
For the majority of installs not using PWM idle on the mainboard, solder components Q4, Q20, R39 and D8 in
place. Note, this gives you a programmable output that can drive a relay e.g. cooling fan on FIdle (Pin 30 of the
db37)
Little help?
25) LEDs. For most installs, you can proceed and install the LEDs. Only in situations where you are DIYing
many spark outputs and want to fit an additional connector should they be omitted.
26) Idle valves:
The MS3 card has support for a 4 wire stepper idle valve built-in, just requiring the five jumpers on the
mainboard in step 23.
If using 2 wire PWM idle, you are advised to use the MS3X 'Idle' output as this is ready to use.
This is covered in section 3.5.4
For the majority of installs not using PWM idle on the mainboard, solder components Q4, Q20, R39 and D8 in
place. Note, this gives you a programmable output that can drive a relay e.g. cooling fan on FIdle (Pin 30 of the
db37)
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
You have an MS3+MS3X, right?
Forget about the LEDs on the mainboard unless you are installing the knock module and perhaps RTC, they may use those signal lines for comms, requiring component removal. If you want blinkenlights on your dash for warm up/shift light/check engine etc, the MS3X has about ~20 lines worth of unused programmable I/O you can use to set that up on a 4 banger.
VDO makes a very common rotary valve iac used mostly on euro vehicles, it is pwm controlled, and has two basic flavors: 2 wire and 3 wire. ...could be common on Japanese cars as well, as they typically use Bosch licensed bits (many were L- or LH-Jet based, probably still are Bosch based) but I'm not familiar with them.
The 2 wire (power and ground) the pwm opens it vs an internal spring.
the 3 wire is 12v in at center terminal, and two opposing pwm signals (ms3x idle and iirc vvt1 usually) pull it either side of center.(a spring also IIRC helps matters) I feel the 3 wire works better, but it really depends on what iac valve you have.
The 2 wire PWM setup can also be used on PWM-capable simple solenoid valves, a lot of cars use those as well..
Forget about the LEDs on the mainboard unless you are installing the knock module and perhaps RTC, they may use those signal lines for comms, requiring component removal. If you want blinkenlights on your dash for warm up/shift light/check engine etc, the MS3X has about ~20 lines worth of unused programmable I/O you can use to set that up on a 4 banger.
VDO makes a very common rotary valve iac used mostly on euro vehicles, it is pwm controlled, and has two basic flavors: 2 wire and 3 wire. ...could be common on Japanese cars as well, as they typically use Bosch licensed bits (many were L- or LH-Jet based, probably still are Bosch based) but I'm not familiar with them.
The 2 wire (power and ground) the pwm opens it vs an internal spring.
the 3 wire is 12v in at center terminal, and two opposing pwm signals (ms3x idle and iirc vvt1 usually) pull it either side of center.(a spring also IIRC helps matters) I feel the 3 wire works better, but it really depends on what iac valve you have.
The 2 wire PWM setup can also be used on PWM-capable simple solenoid valves, a lot of cars use those as well..
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Crap...I don't think i have the MS3X board....I only ordered this:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... p-419.html
Will I be required to order the expansion board as well?
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... p-419.html
Will I be required to order the expansion board as well?
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Not technically required, but you will still be limited to semi-sequential batch injection (mainboard injector drivers=2) and a distributor or EDIS without doing a lot of custom work. (That's enough for many people, although IMHO a waste)
With the MS3X the ECU side is more or less plug and play for full sequential/COPs or whatever, just need to wire it up externally and maybe set a jumper or two.
The MS3x adds 8 coil (logic level) drivers, 8 injector drivers, an additional VR/Hall input, and a herd of programmable inputs/outputs and a few more analog ins.
Needs a second cable harness too, as it has its own DB37 for all that I/O...
You have the MS3 case right? There's a hole for the MS3X in it already.
With the MS3X the ECU side is more or less plug and play for full sequential/COPs or whatever, just need to wire it up externally and maybe set a jumper or two.
The MS3x adds 8 coil (logic level) drivers, 8 injector drivers, an additional VR/Hall input, and a herd of programmable inputs/outputs and a few more analog ins.
Needs a second cable harness too, as it has its own DB37 for all that I/O...
You have the MS3 case right? There's a hole for the MS3X in it already.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
I have the MS3 case. You listed a few perks with the MSX, but one of the items that I absolutely want to get rid of is the distributor. I like Mario's cam sync, and would like to incorporate that in the project, if necessary.
But without the MSX, are you saying I cannot have sequential fire/fuel?
But without the MSX, are you saying I cannot have sequential fire/fuel?
-
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Without the MS3X, you'll have 2 injector outputs (Bank 1 & 2 batch fire) and 1 coil output on a "stock" MS3. There are technically internal header pins that have the signals needed for other injectors and coils, but they would have to go to a separate driver board to be usable. Jbperf appears to have stopped selling their version, so your choice is pretty much buy an MS3X or build one from scratch.
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
The mainboard has room for one ignition driver, I suspect you could hack a second one in and drive waste spark, which would be no loss 99% of the time, but I think everyone agrees logic controlled coils are the way to go to reduce electrical noise in the ECU..
You could potentially add a pair of injector drivers (same circuit as std) in the proto area.
You could still get the PWM driver board and add some BIPs in an external case to get you there, but the MS3X is supported and is a better solution for most folks.
If you were absolutely determined to run dumb coils and low-z injectors an external driver box as described would actually make more sense than the MS3X, but ~only in that use case. You would still have to route logic signals out via a second connector.
Doable, my first MS2 setup used exactly that setup as MS3/MS3X wasn't released yet.
With the *error board (EGT amp, dual LM1813 VR amps, etc) ribbon cable with terminations everywhere etc... impressive hack to look at, and worked very well, but you could achieve at least as much simply plugging a MS3X in today.
I still have pics of how you do not want to do it posted here somewhere.
You could potentially add a pair of injector drivers (same circuit as std) in the proto area.
You could still get the PWM driver board and add some BIPs in an external case to get you there, but the MS3X is supported and is a better solution for most folks.
If you were absolutely determined to run dumb coils and low-z injectors an external driver box as described would actually make more sense than the MS3X, but ~only in that use case. You would still have to route logic signals out via a second connector.
Doable, my first MS2 setup used exactly that setup as MS3/MS3X wasn't released yet.
With the *error board (EGT amp, dual LM1813 VR amps, etc) ribbon cable with terminations everywhere etc... impressive hack to look at, and worked very well, but you could achieve at least as much simply plugging a MS3X in today.
I still have pics of how you do not want to do it posted here somewhere.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Man, this is way more confusing that i had initially anticipated. I'm just going to get the MS3X board and take the easier route.
So let me get this straight though...I'm going to have the MS3 main board, the MS3 daughter board, AND the MS3X board, all in the same box?
So let me get this straight though...I'm going to have the MS3 main board, the MS3 daughter board, AND the MS3X board, all in the same box?
- Chip Birks
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Ms3/3x on a v3.0(has proto area) main board is my favorite combo.
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Good, you will not be disappointed, it makes for a very good ECU.kangaboy wrote:Man, this is way more confusing that i had initially anticipated. I'm just going to get the MS3X board and take the easier route.
So let me get this straight though...I'm going to have the MS3 main board, the MS3 daughter board, AND the MS3X board, all in the same box?
Yep, they were designed all to fit in that box.
There is actually room for a couple more boards
If you can $wing it I suggest getting the realtime clock module as well, makes the SDCard logging far more useful.
The knock module also installs on the MS3X if you feel a need to go there, it does work, can add later as needed.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Any thing else i need to order this time around, besides the MS3X? Kinda wanted to get all the MS components out of the way and start focusing on spark/fuel.
These are the additional items i got the first time around:
JimStim v1.5
MS3 USB Cable
8' Wire Harness
These are the additional items i got the first time around:
JimStim v1.5
MS3 USB Cable
8' Wire Harness
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
The MS3X needs its own cable to hook up the injectors and coils etc.
You might consider an RTC and/or knock module.
Do you have a wideband O2 setup?
It's not technically mandatory but going without one borders on insanity, as you really can't tune with a narrowband except at stoichiometric AFR... (usually ~14.3-14.7:1 AFR reading, ~Lambda 1) This can work, but is not terribly safe on a hot motor.
You can get a good WBO2 with sensor for around $100 these days from several sources.
Get the extended cable option or you'll have to make one.
(depends on where you install it and how long the cable is, our sensors are usually at the very back of the car on the collector, and need a couple extra feet at least, even to go to under the back seat)
You might consider an RTC and/or knock module.
Do you have a wideband O2 setup?
It's not technically mandatory but going without one borders on insanity, as you really can't tune with a narrowband except at stoichiometric AFR... (usually ~14.3-14.7:1 AFR reading, ~Lambda 1) This can work, but is not terribly safe on a hot motor.
You can get a good WBO2 with sensor for around $100 these days from several sources.
Get the extended cable option or you'll have to make one.
(depends on where you install it and how long the cable is, our sensors are usually at the very back of the car on the collector, and need a couple extra feet at least, even to go to under the back seat)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
Pile, do you have a link one of the WBO2 with sensors that you are refering to?
Also, will i want CHT sensor?
Also, will i want CHT sensor?
- Piledriver
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo - MS3v3 "Board Building"
http://www.14point7.com/pages/products
There are several choices, I'm currently running the EVK kit which is $115 with either a LSU 4.2 or 4.9 sensor.
(the controller programming IIRC differs slightly, at least)
The spartan looks like its just a cable, and is no longer bundled with the sensor, but still a good value, you can change the sensor now. (originally the controller was literally soldered into the connector of the sensor)
The Innovate LC2 runs about $190 with sensor, but also has digital comms, and seems to have overcome the LC1s dying like flies issues.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc2.php
Someone recently posted another unit that looked like a good deal, controller-in-gauge-head type unit, but I have to go to work. There are many choices.
There are several choices, I'm currently running the EVK kit which is $115 with either a LSU 4.2 or 4.9 sensor.
(the controller programming IIRC differs slightly, at least)
The spartan looks like its just a cable, and is no longer bundled with the sensor, but still a good value, you can change the sensor now. (originally the controller was literally soldered into the connector of the sensor)
The Innovate LC2 runs about $190 with sensor, but also has digital comms, and seems to have overcome the LC1s dying like flies issues.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc2.php
Someone recently posted another unit that looked like a good deal, controller-in-gauge-head type unit, but I have to go to work. There are many choices.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.