MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:35 am

Been putting the miles on the bug now. Still with my base tune that I completed a few months ago. I believe there is some power to be had, along with some MPG, so I will be messing with it a bit trying to polish it up.
One thing that I really wanna do this season is get a throttle body with an idle valve on it. Cold starts in the morning are putting a strain on my battery and starter. Pretty sure Pile has described how to mess with the WUE and that to make a TB with no idle valve on it work, but I would rather just get one to make it easier. Laziness might be the culprit here.
Also found out the US government is giving me a fair amount of money back that I let them borrow, so I will be able to order the brake kit that I wanted :twisted:
Anyone have a suggestion on a TB with an idle valve on it that they particularly like? I will prolly head to the junk yard this weekend or next to start my hunt.
Also, looking into intercooler setups. Would love to get the boost (safely) into the double digits by the end of the year.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:28 am

Big fan of the bosch idle valves. Allows you to use your current throttle body, just need to add a port above and below it. I have a throttle body that came with a built in setup, i tried it but never got a good result from the Ford valve. Now the valve is gone, with plugs in place of it, and i now have a bosch valve again.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:24 pm

With a ms3/ms3x the 3 wire versions work great.
note:The valve may say "VDO" on it.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:16 pm

Ok, please school me on this. For some reason I thought the idle control valve was part of a throttle body. But did 5 minutes of research, and its actually a valve? So i need to wire the valve to my MS, and then plumb a hose from the valve, to my manifold (past the butterfly)?
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:18 pm

Its built in on some OE TBs.
usually the hose runs from air cleaner to plenum.

Needs to be decent sized to have full authority, the typical valves have 3/4" barbs.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:41 pm

My bosch has 3/4" and 1" barbs if i remember right. My Ford valve was just attached to the TB, it had a port above and a port below the throttle plate, no external hoses.

Requires wiring and tuning either way. The new engine states stuff on ms3 1.5 firmware has kicked my butt royally as far as idle tuning goes. Getting there slowly though. Might be a problem with my lump cam more than anything though.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:56 pm

Strangely, the engine states feature got my setup finally working very well. (with minor tweaking)
Previously it would drop the revs too low and occasionally die before the cl idle kicked in, no matter what i did.

Setting a minimum duty cycle high enough to prevent that was the only imperfect work around.

Mild cam though....
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:32 pm

Pick-a-part yielded a couple idle control valves today. One from a V6 volvo has a 1" and a 3/4" port, and one from a 1.8L Hyundai has 5/8" ports. Assuming they both work, I believe i will try the larger of the two. I really hope this works, as IDK if my battery can take another year of these cold start crankings. I dream of having a nice quick start and instant idle.
Will be working on putting a cam sync in as well, and getting full sequential. The only thing stopping me from doing this right now is pulling the MS box. It's not difficult with the way I have it mounted, but I'm just feeling lazy.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:28 am

I have a 3wire VDO in mine I had for a spare for my vanagon--- Neither unit worked right in the vanagon but works great with MS3 or MS2+MS3X. (latter using fidle>ms3x-idle and inverted fidle routed out through ms3x-vvt)
I could hear/feel it doing something, but the 86 Vanagon digijet setup never seemed to work the IAC quite right
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:31 pm

What in the hell is going on here?
Just from my untrained/unexperienced eye, I'm guessing my TPS needs to be recalibrated or is on the fritz. Can anyone offer some insight?
Symptoms are just a super annoying surge at light cruise and low speed accel. The lines on the graph look crazy, and looking back at a few other logs I have, they were never that jagged and wonky. I haven't done anything physically to the engine, and have really only messed with the AFR and Spark tables, so I couldn't pin this issue on any single event that took place.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:07 am

Might be worth checking out your grounds. I had weird signals, found that the ground strap from battery to body was loose. Tightened it up and everything is happy now.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:47 am

Wiring looks fine, nothing noticeable to my eye. I was reading on the MSExtra forums and noticed several others had surging issues regarding an EGO setting. Gonna look at my tune and see if this relates to me. I'm gonna do a more in depth check on the grounds as well, as this still seems like the most probable cause.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Clonebug » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:05 pm

kangaboy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:35 am
Been putting the miles on the bug now. Still with my base tune that I completed a few months ago. I believe there is some power to be had, along with some MPG, so I will be messing with it a bit trying to polish it up.
One thing that I really wanna do this season is get a throttle body with an idle valve on it. Cold starts in the morning are putting a strain on my battery and starter. Pretty sure Pile has described how to mess with the WUE and that to make a TB with no idle valve on it work, but I would rather just get one to make it easier. Laziness might be the culprit here.
Also found out the US government is giving me a fair amount of money back that I let them borrow, so I will be able to order the brake kit that I wanted :twisted:
Anyone have a suggestion on a TB with an idle valve on it that they particularly like? I will prolly head to the junk yard this weekend or next to start my hunt.
Also, looking into intercooler setups. Would love to get the boost (safely) into the double digits by the end of the year.
Your cranking pulse and warm up must be wrong.
I haven't had an idle valve in the 4 years I have been FI and my engine will start with throttle untouched most of the time.
It will idle slow when cold but it will start after about 2-3 seconds cranking.

Lately I have been messing with the wue and leaning it way out due to it running pretty rich when cold but it does have to have extra fuel when first starting.I just shortened the time it is rich to make it quit blubbering.
Do a "Save As" and then don't be afraid to try different settings.

As Pile said the defaults really aren't even close to what a VW aircooled engine needs.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by RHough » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:26 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:18 pm
Its built in on some OE TBs.
usually the hose runs from air cleaner to plenum.

Needs to be decent sized to have full authority, the typical valves have 3/4" barbs.
I have a love/hate relationship with my Bosch IAC system. The problem I have is a combo of too large ITB's and IR manifolds not playing well with the IAC system.

Full close @ 30% Duty is not 'off' there is still some flow.
If I use plumbing that is large enough to give 1200-1500RPM on a cold engine the hot 30% flow is to large to let the engine idle below 1000. Hot the full open 80-90% duty gives 1500-2500 RPM depending on spark advance.

My work around to date is to kill the timing at idle so I can have some flow through the throttle plates and the IAC stays at 30% in closed loop.

I'd like to loose the IDF ITBs and go with a single center mount TB using some high flow manifold ends to get the injectors closer to the valves. If I can find a 52mm or so TB with a IAC valve built in I think I can get better cold start/idle operation out of it as well as simpler linkage and a cleaner engine compartment.

So ... the $$$ question:

What OEM TB is 48 - 56mm and has a Bosch style IAC built in? So far I haven't found the right search terms to find what I want.

Cheers
Randy

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:45 pm

I have a TB from a Mercury Cougar, probably mid 90s. It had a ford idle valve built onto it. I never got the ford valve to play nicely. I ended up pulling it off and plugging its holes. I welded a couple pipes onto my intake existing intake and run a bosch valve. Works great! Tb is about 50mm. I don't think you'll find many that fit your criteria. I've never seen a bosch valve connected to a tb.

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