point and laugh, please...

[ruben]

well. been reading on hear for 2 years now and have yelped once or twice in an attempt to be intelligent.

but now i need intelligent input.. please

here's the case:
600 kg buggy with a 914 gearbox and a wbx 1900 cc engine
porsche 944 brakes and as low as possible for a fast street buggy
( I've got an 1641 t 1 as well but it ate its cam. so this is a stop-gap solution)



ms3 with honda cbr 600 rr throttle body's on home made manifolds.
vw dis coil pack and the cbr injectors. (pc37, 75 mm spacing, 35mm choke, and orange 200 cc/min injectors)



i'm at the point of first start up so I've got all the sensors and spark/ injectors working.
but while cranking i get a blinking fuel pump relay and an intermittent rpm reading peaking at 130 rpm cranking speed.
when i pull the spark plugs i do get a stable rpm reading at about 240 rpm.

the trigger is the flywheel with 12 holes and 2 of them milled together creating a 12 -1 wheel with the hall sensor sticking true the big hole in the case (I've drilled the pp mounting holes out to 24 mm and using the pp it's self added 6 extra holes)

i must admit that the battery is a varly racing one with 17 ah of capacity (and 600 amps of cranking)
so it falls down fast voltage wise. and the charger cant keep up with the starter so a low voltage is a very likely culprit.

is there something i can do to stabilize the real low rpm reading short of a trigger-wheel change?
i.ve updated the firmware and read about ad adjusting the pots on the v3 board, but cant see a change there make a difference since its a hall sensor

(for the metrically impaired i'l try to calculate the proper imperial values, but since i'm dutch i cant shake em out of my sleeve.)

[Joe vw]

I can't answer your question, but I have a suggestion. Change the title of your post.
I first suspected spam. Second If a search is done in the future your post will be obscured by it's title.
Third, you do yourself a disservice of all the work you did on your project that is actually more than many others have done - have some pride.
I am doing a similar project with bike throttle bodies and seriously welded T1 Weber intakes on a 2.1 waterboxer .

[Clonebug]

Put a better battery on it or jump it with some cables so you have two batteries giving power.

Does it seem like it is turning over slow????

If your voltage is dropping below 12 volts at crank the ecu will not function correctly.

I had that happen on my MS-1...the battery was low but it did start....then the alternator didn't kick in right away so the engine started missing and would barely keep running until I finally got the revs high enough for the alternator to start charging.

[Piledriver]

Turn off "use prediction" in the wheel decoder page, may help, may not.

Some sensors may not work well with the big holes at low RPM.

The DIYAutotune sensor I have does not really work with my 6/1 flywheel setup, currently I'm running a 36-2 in a 009 and running sequential--- welded some filler on a steel RC car spur gear, was supposed to be 36-1 but it works. I didn't test it on my flywheel but have made a spare to eventtually try it.

I made my own Hall sensor assy using 3/8" SS tubing with a Allegro ATS667LSG sensor filed to fit inside, smt caps and pullup soldered directly to the legs and filled w/epoxy...
It would not work with a missing tooth on 32 pitch gears, but works great with a filled gap.
(your setup may work better with a missing hole vs a long hole)
.

Short of upgrading the battery, you might get away with a huge capacitor or even second tiny 12v battery on the MS power feed, as long as the ignition and injector power feeds are isolated it should help greatly.

Ferrites may also help if its an ignition noise issue., and make sure to run resistor wires and plugs

[ruben]

thanks for the reply folks,

battery will not play for tuning, its a great I'll battery when it's all set up tho,
these racing battery's are a "if it wont start in a Minuit it wont start at all" deal, forgot that
it served me realy well with the webber's on the t1, even the dreaded "back in 5 min" starts on a 9,0 compression engine

the hall is an industrial type witch will play ball till about 8 volts, it's specked from 10 to 30 v and has a mirrored output as well and i have tested it to 8 Khz and puts out battery voltage. ms reads it fine and stable via the vr circuit.

it actually wants to start after an hour of charge but after a short while of cranking voltage drops to 8 volts and the sensor shuts down
so it actually drops the fp relay. dose that count as noise?

that's not a workable tuning setup.
until i get the cranking fuel correct il hook up the battery of my eurovan ( 100 Ah)

is there a intelligent way of finding cranking pw in a calculation of sorts?
also cranking advance is set to 0 deg to avoid kickbacks is that valid or is 10 deg more sane?

pile, check on the ferrite cores, copy'ed the insulated engine setup where everything is grounded to the ms case upfront of the car with the battery at the front axle. added caps at the larger current consumers, separate ground from the battery, resistor leads and plugs, figured id go all out on noise prevention straight away

i'm new to ms but i am an electrician with lots of similarity regarding programming and weird effects in pwm dc installs and rfid systems.

[Piledriver]

Re: decent battery--- very short related story:

I "inherited" my sons 99.5 TDi, he went through hell with it for years, spent thousands at the dealer having it looked at and "repaired".

...would throw random codes and cause constant headaches, wouldn't start half the time...

Once I got a "get it out of my yard" and it became my problem, I exchanged the econo 550 CCA battery for a correctly sized battery, installed a great fuel lift pump (VW even added a wimpy one in the tank on all 2001+ models) and it has been utterly bullet proof ever since.
(other than the usual VW problem of not quite having mastered making things out of plastic, they really need to poach some Toyota engineers)

Electronics generally like clean power, and plenty of it.
EFI (esp. MFI/DI) does not care much for air bubbles in the fuel.

Reading the above, it sounds like I stole it, but I had advised the same fixes for years and I waited several years before actually changing the title over, as I figured it would go home once fixed.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Don't forget a good, reliable 'earth'; one of the most problematic electrical parts of the electrical system. The ground wire should be the same size/gauge as the wire(s) it is supporting.

I don't use the chassis for grounding anymore on my glass buggy but run a large gauge ground wire to the "dash"/electrical distribution area. Tired metal doesn't do as good of a job and you never know what a PO has done right or wrong.

Nice looking buggy!

Lee

[Redline Weber]

The Varley battery may be the problem.
The battery, ALL BATTERIES, should be able to produce OVER 9.6 volts at cranking times.
The normal cranking voltage is about 11 volts at constant levels.

UNDERSTAND that when cranking the starter armature can draw over 1000 Amps at times.
The use of a scope will SHOW this though a RMS voltmeter will NOT exhibit that value.

The internal supervisor IC (watch dog) will stop the ECU processor for "brown out" protection.

Lance

[TouringBubble]

I have a small battery in Dori thats a dry cell with 680 CCA. I had an issue a while back where I chased my tail for a while before realizing the battery was an issue. The relays wouldn't function properly, dash was dark, ECU malfunctions, etc. What I found is that the battery had fallen below 7v and my slow 2a trickle charger wasn't strong enough to recharge it properly. 12v relays don't work at 6v.

I hooked it up to another good battery for a few minutes then immediately put it on a better 6a charger and all was well. Relays started working, etc. I'm still using the battery.

So, small batteries can work just fine, but you need a solid charge and proper settings on the ECU to have them work.

For starting, I have had success at 0º and at a little more. There is no reason to get over +5º though. I was having hot start issues and thought it was timing when it was really the starter itself.

[ruben]

okay progress,

hoked up the van straight on the starter, and with a bit of throttle it fired up!
got the alternator and VE analyze going. voltage settled at 13.6 and ran it for a good while

but the rpm is not stable, it still cycles the rpm reading to 0 and actual about once a second.
problem increases with rpm. I've probably got the teeth count / phase screwed up.

il put the msq up and a log, as for now I've got an oil leak at the pump to fix and a small fuel one at the driver side fuel-rail.
until then i will go over the trigger settings.

[Piledriver]

Could still be a noise issue.

One thing folks forget is the battery is also your best noise filter.
The bigger it is, and the fatter/shorter your runs for power and ground are, the less noise issues you should see.

Also note that the main reason I upgraded to a modern alternator (GM CS130D) was mostly for the much reduced electrical noise rather than higher current capability.

[ruben]

well i'd guess this is the cause.. at least it's not helping..

this was during cranking last month with the spark plugs installed, il get a fresh one once the leaks are gone.
better try the sensor in the old diagnostic sensor hole moving it away from the compression effect by +/- 50 deg
if that fails il have to get a decent trigger wheel setup (has Mario's t1 setup been run on a wbx with coolant pipes?)

imho the 12 - 1 wheel is to sensitive for compression effects, next one will be a 24 - 2 pattern adding more resolution and a real clear missing tooth gap. also wont require a new flywheel

[juki48]

speaking of noise, make sure you have good noise suppressing plug wires. I had a hell of a time with noise until I pulled off the old wires and put on some autolite wires with a wound suppressor core. if your wires have a solid core they will make all kinds of noise.

[ruben]

wires came from the same car as the vw dis coil pack 032 905 106 b and are non copper wire /carbon type.
and have about 1 k ohm wire resistance plus 10 k in the plug ends. (2.1 ms running and 3 ms cranking, 0.5 spark duration, 12v led pull up)

i ve timed tdc with no1 teeth, need to solve that and hope code is satisfied with the provided data.

do you need to zip a log first to attach it? it says it will not have .csv or .msl files

[Piledriver]

do you need to zip a log first to attach it? it says it will not have .csv or .msl files

Yes, you have to zip it, or post it somewhere and link to it.

I ran a 6/1 setup for ages (using existing holes in the flywheel) only changed it to test other setups.

Your wheel setup is not the problem per se.