72 T3 MS3 with MS3X question

[vwi_dduvall]

Hello I am not really sure where to start with my questions so I will start with my system configuration.
72 T3 1600 that had duel carbs that I managed to piece together a stock FI system from members of the vwtype3.org group it’s a mix of 72 and earlier FI parts. I stuck with the stock 007 injectors and am using an aftermarket FI fuel pump and regulator with gauge. I am using the Megasquirt 3 with MS3X and run a MSD 6A and Accel super coil with a locked 009 and Pertronix Ignitor. I use an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 for the wide band O2 and TPS is the Bosch 0 280 122 001. I decided to go with the duel MAP/Baro setup and use a GM 3bar external for MAP.
I have configured the 009 with Pertronix to provide the tach signal to the MS3 which in turn controls the MSD 6A that runs the coil this part seems to be working well as I can lock the advance at 5BTDC and verify it with a timing light and once it put back to (Use Table) it does its thing. Where I am running into problems at this stage is the fuel load and AFR readings. Fuel Load always reads 111.4 - 111.2 when I have things set to Percent Baro or Speed Density but if set to Alpha-N it goes to zero. And my AFR reading seem to be a bit off also running in the 10.00 to 13 range but smells rich to me and should it not be around the 14.7 +- a few?
Here are some links to screen shots and my MSQ file:
First is Engine running gauge readings:
http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/FI/MS3/EonKon.PNG
Next is Engine OFF but Key on:
http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... offKon.PNG
And finally the MSQ file:
http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... ntTune.zip
Now I know there is lots of talk here about using a dizzy with Pertronix and the issues it causes but at this stage I just need to know if what I see is normal or if there is a misconfiguration I am not seeing somewhere. Feel free to ask me any questions and request more info that I might have left out.

Thanks,
Daniel Du Vall

[Piledriver]

The headaches a distributor can cause are not the ones you are seeing---
They are only mentioned frequently because they can be very hard to identify, and can lead to damage.

It's more of a "don't poke yourself in the eye" level warning, as there are simply much easier to initially troubleshoot + very reliable setups given a choice when gathering parts//planning stages.

It is a supported setup, it's simply not as well tested as the direct control setups, per the developers.

You should be on SD, include AFR, multiply MAP should be set (basically the defaults) if you are running a plenum and don't have a wild cam...
I'll assume you have the ignition side under control

First:need to verify the MAP sensor reads ~100KPa (or normal atm at your altitude, mines ~97.5 KPa) when system on but engine off. Same for the 2nd baro sensor if you are running one.
Calibrate them as needed.

[Chip Birks]

Why not use the stock ECU map sensor as a map sensor, and the external one as the baro. That would eliminate the fuel load issue. AFR should smell rich in the 10.0-13 range, because it is rich. 14.7 is not the target afr to run unless you have a catalytic converter. Your afr table will vary depending on load and rpm.

[Clonebug]

6 degrees BTDC is pretty low for idle.

Stock is 7.5 and I found my MS-1 1679 T-1 engine likes 12 plus degrees at idle and with a fairly steep increase to 30 plus by 2700 rpm.

It is noticeable more crisp on the throttle at idle to cruise and pulls more vacuum at cruise.

Try bumping your advance up to 12 degrees at idle and see if it runs a little cleaner. That could be part of the reason it is smelling rich.

[vwi_dduvall]

Why not use the stock ECU map sensor as a map sensor, and the external one as the baro. That would eliminate the fuel load issue. AFR should smell rich in the 10.0-13 range, because it is rich. 14.7 is not the target afr to run unless you have a catalytic converter. Your afr table will vary depending on load and rpm.

Reason for that is the ECU is mounted under the drivers seat and I did not want to run a long vacuum hose clear to the plenum.

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/FI/IMG_1828.JPG

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... G_1639.JPG

[vwi_dduvall]

6 degrees BTDC is pretty low for idle.

Stock is 7.5 and I found my MS-1 1679 T-1 engine likes 12 plus degrees at idle and with a fairly steep increase to 30 plus by 2700 rpm.

It is noticeable more crisp on the throttle at idle to cruise and pulls more vacuum at cruise.

Try bumping your advance up to 12 degrees at idle and see if it runs a little cleaner. That could be part of the reason it is smelling rich.

I only used it for my initial timing setting and check. I used 0 and 5 to verify distributor position and then that it was responding to what it was being told. I am using a timing table that starts at 12 that I received from some one in my other forum.

[Max Welton]

FWIW Daniel, I am running 12 degrees BTDC at idle with mine and I am at your altitude. Works better.

Max

[vwi_dduvall]

Why not use the stock ECU map sensor as a map sensor, and the external one as the baro. That would eliminate the fuel load issue. AFR should smell rich in the 10.0-13 range, because it is rich. 14.7 is not the target afr to run unless you have a catalytic converter. Your afr table will vary depending on load and rpm.

Reason for that is the ECU is mounted under the drivers seat and I did not want to run a long vacuum hose clear to the plenum.

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/FI/IMG_1828.JPG

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... G_1639.JPG

So I have a very NUB question how do I see the reading for both MAP sensors or is there only a way to see one?
Is this why it shows fuel load at over 100?

[vwi_dduvall]

Why not use the stock ECU map sensor as a map sensor, and the external one as the baro. That would eliminate the fuel load issue. AFR should smell rich in the 10.0-13 range, because it is rich. 14.7 is not the target afr to run unless you have a catalytic converter. Your afr table will vary depending on load and rpm.

Reason for that is the ECU is mounted under the drivers seat and I did not want to run a long vacuum hose clear to the plenum.

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/FI/IMG_1828.JPG

http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... G_1639.JPG

So I have a very NUB question how do I see the reading for both MAP sensors or is there only a way to see one?
Is this why it shows fuel load at over 100?

Never mind I think I answered my own question on this one. It never fails to happen it seems.

[Piledriver]

Mines under the back seat, most MS installs are front engine and under the dash, 3-6ft line is typical.
(I was surprised how short mine ended up, closer to 3', ran 1/4" OD poly hardline for long line in the harness, and vinyl at the MS end)

It's really not an issue unless you restrict the line, vacuum moves at the speed of sound, which is temperature, not pressure dependent.

[Chip Birks]

Mine used to be under the passenger seat. No problems with the long hose.

[Piledriver]

You also want to turn on map averaging.
(this is not the lags, which is a different sort of averaging)

I'll post up my current msq tonight when i get home, I'm running a
"normal" setup now with Marios 36-1 wheel it should be a reasonable starting place for most.

MS3-pre1.3A6a works VERY nicely, although I suspect betas and release shortly after are imminent.

[vwi_dduvall]

OK Now that I figured out the gauges setup I now have more info as to what is going on.
Here are some new screen shots:
First one is reading with just the key on:
http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... talled.PNG
Second one is reading with key on and running:
http://volkswageninsanity.us/Postings/F ... yonrun.PNG

Now assuming it was all working correctly I would expect to see a change in that MAP readings after its starts.
So now my question is why no change other than a .2 kPa is there a setting I missed or a change to the MS3X?
The .2 is consistent each time i start for not running readings. I verified the wiring come from the MS to the external map and I have it correct far as i can tell. (A)Ground (B) Signal (C) +5V

Am i right in saying that this is why I show the 100 reading in the fuel load?

Anyone have any ideas?

[vwi_dduvall]

You also want to turn on map averaging.
(this is not the lags, which is a different sort of averaging)

I'll post up my current msq tonight when i get home, I'm running a
"normal" setup now with Marios 36-1 wheel it should be a reasonable starting place for most.

MS3-pre1.3A6a works VERY nicely, although I suspect betas and release shortly after are imminent.

Is that the Mario from The Dub Shop?

[Piledriver]

You also want to turn on map averaging.
(this is not the lags, which is a different sort of averaging)

I'll post up my current msq tonight when i get home, I'm running a
"normal" setup now with Marios 36-1 wheel it should be a reasonable starting place for most.

MS3-pre1.3A6a works VERY nicely, although I suspect betas and release shortly after are imminent.

Is that the Mario from The Dub Shop?

Yes.
I beta tested a T4 bolt-on wheel/pickup setup for him, worked nice with some minor massaging.

Up 'till then I was running 6/1 using the dust vent holes in the flywheel + cam sync just because I could.
(line up with the pressure plate cover bolts)
T4s and WBX cases already have a large hole in the right place to put a sensor.
A t1 block would need drilled.