Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

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petew
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Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by petew » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:52 pm

Hi all,
Considering converting my judson powered 40hp engine (in a 56 beetle) over to MSII with wasted spark setup. Love to hear your thoughts.

I live in Sydney, Australia. So some of the parts you guys use are not available to me, but a breakdown of what I might need would be excellent. Alternatively, if someone has already done something similar, a link would be good.

The idea is that down the track, I'd build a more serious twin port 1300 with an SC12 or SC14 supercharger off a toyota. Also consider the idea of twin plug heads. So I'd want to build those capabilitites into the ECU and software choice now.

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by supaninja » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm

This thread is a good read viewtopic.php?f=63&t=139845

Andy is using to control only spark on a 40hp and is having fantastic results, the fuel part is the easy part to tune. As far as all the ms bits, you can then them all from Mario at the dub shop, plus his advice for free.
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petew
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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by petew » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:48 pm

thx superninja. Lots of talking there, but I'm still at the learning stage with qus like;
1. which crank trigger system?
2. surge tank or no?
3. which board/modules?

Is there an FAQ page that does that well for dubs?

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by supaninja » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:54 am

There is so much info out there on MS that it becomes overwhelming. Unfortunately nobody has put a FAQ together specifically for us yet. I'm sure you already found it but msextra.com has lots and lots of info. MS2 3.0 is the diy assembly version, while v3.57 is the pre-assembled one (uses miniature smp components), apparently the ms extra pcb can now work with ms2, which is super awesome. I'm surprised Mario hasn't popped in here yet, pick his brain, he the jedi master of this stuff.
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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by andy198712 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:53 pm

Hello

so what are you wanting, spark and fuel yeah?

on a Single port that isn't AS simple to do as a twinport due to after market parts available ect but could be done!

you can go two ways ish for crank triggers.

you can direct fire them, easier with a VERSION 3 board (mine is 2.2) when i say version 3 i mean MS1 V3, MS2 V3, MS3 V3 ;)

or go EDIS which is what i did and given i had 2.2 and not experience on it, easier for me.... with EDIS you cant have all the cool features like rev limit, launch control yada yada, but it is easy.

ask away :)

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by petew » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:06 pm

thanks Andy,

I assume direct fire is a toothwheel and crank sensor?

What specifically is EDIS? And what is COP? Keep seeing both pop up, but I couldn't figure out what they meant. I mean I get that EDIS is run off a ford coil pack (which probably isn't available in Australia, but subaru has similar things), but I don't get if it's a crank or a dizzy fired system.

If you could post some pics of your motor, it would really help me.

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by Clonebug » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Edis Coil mounted

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It is a set of two coils that each fire two plugs every other revolution for what is called Wasted Spark.

Edis Module Mounted. It's the black cartridge mounted on the flat plate.

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36-1 Toothed wheel with missing tooth and VR sensor mounted at 10 degrees after TDC.

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All these have been around for many years and are proven to work but there are more modern setups that you can go to now.

www.thedubshop.net has a toothed wheel setup that is completely hidden behind the pulley and CB Performance also has one that mounts up front.

Whether a 40 horse engine has all the bolts in the correct place to mount a hidden trigger wheel would have to be checked on.

The EDIS parts were on cars in Europe but I don't know about Down Under.......they might all be crushed by now.

Mine came from a 1994 1.9 L 4 cylinder Ford Escort.

Direct fire is the rage now using GM LS2 coils for spark and is what would be the way to go now due to parts availability.

Read the MS-Extra manual it is a wealth of info and will fry your brain for days to come...... :wink: :lol:
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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by petew » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:16 pm

thanx clonebug.

I had two wisdom teeth out 2 days ago, so my brain is already a little fried... :lol:

But I think I get it now. The EDIS is a dedicated wasted spark setup with a factory module, but the direct fire stuff is not and runs straight off the MS3 board. Ok. Got that.

My drama will be fitting a toothed wheel onto a pulley that already has a judson pulley on it too. Have to figure that one out. Shouldn't be too hard. We've got a stack of GM stuff over here between Holden and Daewoo so I'm sure I can find something to use as a sensor.

Of course my budget just dried up, stupid car bills... but this is a long term thingo anyway.

Re injectors, I was thinking two injectors pointing into the ports on the heads would do the trick. With the car making so little power, I reckon 2 corolla or similar injectors off a 2litre or similar would be more than enough. I was also thinking a cold start style injector near the throttle body might be good too. What do you reckon?

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by willo357 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:43 pm

You can follow the link in my signature to see my progression from rookie to master.

Read up big on here, http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html I recommend getting the MSextra firmware.

find your local "pick a part" in Sydney, Im from Melbourne and there are heaps. You can not only get injectors, coils and sensors cheap but also have a good look at the way manufactures have done it.

Look at the intake plenums and throttle bodies. Check out the injector rails. You need to build up your knowledge and ensure you understand what you are trying to achieve before you discover how to achieve it.

:P

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by miniman82 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:15 am

willo357 wrote:You can follow the link in my signature to see my progression from rookie to master.

But you are injecting a dual port engine, with 4 injectors for 4 cylinders. That does not apply here, besides the ignition part of it.

What you guys haven't mentioned yet is that if you want to port inject 4 cylinders with only 2 injectors, you need the siamese code offered by MS2/Extra. I believe siamese code was an outgrowth of people trying to inject the BMC Mini engine, which is an inline 4 also with siamese But there's a twist in your case- the Judson. Because the vanes are in contact with the case it's a fuel cooled item to some extent, so I'd be worried about damaging it if the fuel entry point is at the valve vice going through the blower. A more elegant solution is to just run a TBI unit, and let the fuel run through the blower as normal. Then there's no injection timing issues, and the blower doesn't care either. You probably have one of those Marvel Oilers too, right?
I'm surprised Mario hasn't popped in here yet, pick his brain, he the jedi master of this stuff.
He ain't the only one. :wink:
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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by Jadewombat » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:14 pm

I thought one injector per cylinder on a single port isn't done because of "charge robbing" between the cylinders, the pulsations get out of sync. Something to check out before you go that route. It's easier on a single carb. (or one huge injector) because the pulsations don't have to be timed from one source from further away. Not saying it can't be done, just find out first if it's feasible. There was a CB kit which has two injectors, but they're at the base of the center section before it splits off to the end castings. VW in Europe made a lot of cars with some big mono-injector as a base-level car.

Some people argue that there's no point then if you inject from very far away and you might as well just run a carb. I would disagree though because with a carb. you can only guess at the jetting from idle that things will match the engines needs across the whole rev. range--it's very limited. Injection tries to match the engines needs at different points across the rev. range based on more inputs. The same applies to a distributor which is basically two-dimensional, engine speeds up, spins the distributor shaft faster and supplies more spark but doesn't take into account manifold pressure which varies. An engine turning at 3,000 rpms is NOT doing the same amount of work if you're cruising down the road vs. launching off the line vs. going up a mountain.

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by willo357 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:21 am

Jadewombat wrote:I thought one injector per cylinder on a single port isn't done because of "charge robbing" between the cylinders, the pulsations get out of sync. Something to check out before you go that route. It's easier on a single carb. (or one huge injector) because the pulsations don't have to be timed from one source from further away. Not saying it can't be done, just find out first if it's feasible. There was a CB kit which has two injectors, but they're at the base of the center section before it splits off to the end castings. VW in Europe made a lot of cars with some big mono-injector as a base-level car.

Some people argue that there's no point then if you inject from very far away and you might as well just run a carb. I would disagree though because with a carb. you can only guess at the jetting from idle that things will match the engines needs across the whole rev. range--it's very limited
This is what im thinking aswell. You wouldnt have two injectors :?: that would be pointless. rather you would use manifold (single point) fuel injection.

This setup would have similar fuel vaporization characteristics as a single carb but as Jadewombat said you still get global AFR control, if you place a oxygen sensor where all the exhaust pipes meet. This combined with coil control and your supercharger would be a sweet setup.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by petew » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:41 am

Hey guys, back after a week of hols, but I get the point you're making. Yes, the engine has a marvel oiler...

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I was also thinking about the TBI angle like you've mentioned. Even with just TBI, the ability to tune the fuel and spark across the whole rev range should make a pretty noticable difference and allow me to put a lot more advance into it for HWY driving while allowing proper fueling for power as well.

And it should be a great learning curve too.

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by Jadewombat » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:27 am

I would suggest, at least based on my headaches and limited experience with MS, do one thing at a time. Convert the engine to crank-trigger and get the spark dialed in or the TBI and fuel needs first before doing spark. The learning curve is very steep and I'm still not near the peak. :wink:

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Re: Converting to MS on a 40hp/1300?

Post by andy198712 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:47 pm

Jadewombat wrote:I would suggest, at least based on my headaches and limited experience with MS, do one thing at a time. Convert the engine to crank-trigger and get the spark dialed in or the TBI and fuel needs first before doing spark. The learning curve is very steep and I'm still not near the peak. :wink:
Thats a very good point

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