ITB's, MSEFI, and VW engines.

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:44 am

I'm starting this thread so I won't be hijacking someone else's anymore.
There have been several threads dealing with ITB's for VW engines. Grelland, and Supaninja have both had success with GSXR ITB's that they have separated into 2 individual TB's. This, however, requires quite a bit of fabrication to properly mount to IDF manifolds.
I am in the process of designing my won ITB's that I'll be casting and machining. They are designed and, tentatively, priced for the "do it yourselfer".
Here is an excerpt from another conversation I had with another STF member regarding the ITB's I am designing.:

I planned to have the injectors located in the intake manifolds, as you can buy them that way for about $100/set. I did, however, leave enough room on the TB plate for a set of injectors and can machine them if someone wants a set that way. The drawback of this setup is that the injector will spray into an angled hole in order to get below the throttle plate. While I don't see this as a big deal, some might. An injector bung could always be welded to the intake manifolds too.
I plan on casting a top plate that will accept silicone tubing should someone want to run them with in a blow thru turbo application. There is also a steel plate available that any number of things could be welded to.
They are designed to be used with a Bosch TPS that is readily available on many production vehicles as well as from junk yards if preferred. The TPS is on the "right" side TB so it could be used in a single TB set up if desired.
The production quantity will be based on the amount purchased. A friend will be casting them at his house, and I'll be machining them at my workplace on CNC mills. This way, we don't need to make anymore than ordered since I don't have to pay an independent shop to do the work.
I'm programming the first one, (made from billet in order to test it), currently and will see how it works. From there we'll machine a set of patterns and try casting with aluminum first, then maybe an aluminum/zinc alloy

There has also been quite a lot of chatter about using other motorcycle ITB's for VW's. With this in mind, I'm asking what I can make "sandwich style adapter plate kits" for? So far, the most common request has been for the GSXR600 series TB. A few guys here have graciously offered to send their TB's to me for measurement purposes, and I plan to take them up on it.
So far there are early GSXR600, later GSXR600, and late GSXR1000, TB's being suggested. Also suggested is a "kit" that will convert Weber carbs to EFI TB's, although the addition of a TPS looks a little tricky.
What would you guys like to have available? What composes a "good" ITB option for you?
CNC's are standing by.

Soul · Post by **Soul** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:16 am

I have the GSXR 600 ITB's so I'd step up to the plate for a set of sandwich adapters, since the spigot flanges I have leave a bit to be desired. I'd also opt for the top plate that can take silicone tubing.

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:21 am

I didn't like the spigot flange idea much either, which generated this post.
Would you rather have a lid with silicone hose "bosses" machined into it, or a top plate that would allow you to bolt turbo hats to it?

Soul · Post by **Soul** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:31 am

Devastator wrote:I didn't like the spigot flange idea much either, which generated this post.
Would you rather have a lid with silicone hose "bosses" machined into it, or a top plate that would allow you to bolt turbo hats to it?

I'm thinking top plate as it would give me more options prior to bolting on the turbo.

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:35 am

So, a top plate with hollow bosses machined into it that would accept silicone hoses would be your preference? Just making sure I understand completely.

Soul · Post by **Soul** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:40 am

Sorry for not being clear. Top plates that would allow me to bolt turbo hats to it.

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:46 am

Glad I asked.

Post by **Piledriver** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:51 am

The "hat" top plates would likely also allow traditional K&N air cleaners for NA apps.

Perhaps all that's needed are adapters to IDF CB air cleaner bases? (IIRC same base)

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:01 am

Piledriver wrote:Perhaps all that's needed are adapters to IDF CB air cleaner bases? (IIRC same base)

That's an option as it would also give you a throttle cable hole.

Here's some more information about the ITB's I'm building. Again, it is an excerpt from a message to another STF member.:

About a month ago, Pile suggested building a "simple TB with a few holes and throttle plates". Well, I'm designing a little more than that, but I think I can keep the cost down. I'm in the final design stages currently, but can move the "port" holes to different places on the part still. A friend of mine is already preparing to cast them and I have a list of parts and am ready to start the CNC programs to machine them. I just have a few small details to work out, (specifically, the throttle cable mount), and we should be set to prototype them. With this in mind, I want to "build in" characteristics that MS'ers would find appealing. Already in the plan are 2 vacuum ports per bore, sealed roller bearing throttle shafts, with internal o-rings, o-ring sealing surfaces, cable pull linkage with integral return spring, bolt on steel top plate with bores for welding whatever you want to on them. A cast aluminum top plate, instead of steel version, with hollow bosses in them for attaching rubber, or silicone, hoses to. And, possibly, a cast adapter to mount a "stock" style cast aluminum air filter mount like the type used by Dellorto and Weber. They are designed to bolt to a standard Dellorto/Weber manifold, and have a left and right hand version for dual usage. In their current form, they should be bolted to a set of manifolds that have injector bungs already cast into them, although, I left room on the hardware for adding injector bores that would "shoot" fuel through a hole that enters below the throttle plates. Although not optimum, it would be possible.

Vee Dub Nut · Post by **Vee Dub Nut** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:16 am

Piledriver wrote:The "hat" top plates would likely also allow traditional K&N air cleaners for NA apps.

Perhaps all that's needed are adapters to IDF CB air cleaner bases? (IIRC same base)

That is sort of what I was thinking for the GSXR conversion.. If the top and bottom "sandwich" plates for the GSXR ITBs had the top and bottom IDF bolt patterns in them respectively (they are slightly different if I recall), then you can easily use off the shelf CB air cleaner bases with their air cleaners and tops NA or the bases and turbo hats for forced induction. The top plate of the GSXR itb would need to be big enough to cover over the hole for the floats in the CB style bases though so it would all seal up.

Just for information sake on the NA side of things, K&N filters for motorcycles generally seem to run about $30-40 bucks each regardless of size. If your lucky and can find one of their dual throat filters that has the right opening size and spacing for the GSXR ITB, then your only out $60-80 to get filters for an NA application. If you have to buy four small individual K&N filters because they don't have ones that fit your particular model ITBs (which they don't have anything for the 06-07 GSXR in the right size and spacing from my looking), your still looking at $30-40 bucks each totaling $120-160 by the time you get four of them. This makes standard IDF filter options a better deal since there is a ton of different ones available by CB and other companies that would just bolt right on.

On the turbo side, the issue I see with having the top plate just have some bosses to clamp silicon hose to, is that you still have to have some way to get all four bosses tied into a single pipe from the turbo which again can require a fair amount of fabrication. This again makes being able to bolt on CB parts a nice option.

My $0.02...

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:22 am

Vee Dub Nut wrote:That is sort of what I was thinking for the GSXR conversion.. If the top and bottom "sandwich" plates for the GSXR ITBs had the top and bottom IDF bolt patterns in them respectively (they are slightly different if I recall), then you can easily use off the shelf CB air cleaner bases with their air cleaners and tops NA or the bases and turbo hats for forced induction. The top plate of the GSXR itb would need to be big enough to cover over the hole for the floats in the CB style bases though so it would all seal up.

Just for information sake on the NA side of things, K&N filters for motorcycles generally seem to run about $30-40 bucks each regardless of size. If your lucky and can find one of their dual throat filters that has the right opening size and spacing for the GSXR ITB, then your only out $60-80 to get filters for an NA application. If you have to buy four small individual K&N filters because they don't have ones that fit your particular model ITBs (which they don't have anything for the 06-07 GSXR in the right size and spacing from my looking), your still looking at $30-40 bucks each totaling $120-160 by the time you get four of them. This makes standard IDF filter options a better deal since there is a ton of different ones available by CB and other companies that would just bolt right on.

On the turbo side, the issue I see with having the top plate just have some bosses to clamp silicon hose to, is that you still have to have some way to get all four bosses tied into a single pipe from the turbo which again can require a fair amount of fabrication. This again makes being able to bolt on CB parts a nice option.

Good points! I hadn't even thought about the holes for the floats in the stock filter bases.

Vee Dub Nut · Post by **Vee Dub Nut** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:35 pm

Another thought, for the base plate seal to the IDF intakes, an oring groove for a common sized oring would be a nice touch over normal upper IDF intake gaskets. The redline IDF ITBs seal that way and is a much cleaner install IMO

Devastator · Post by **Devastator** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:41 pm

I've designed my ITB's with 1.875" I.D. X 2" O.D. X .062" O-rings around the throttle bores, top and bottom.

Post by **Piledriver** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:54 pm

UNI makes small oiled foam pod filters for a quite a bit less $$$ than K&N, aircooled.net and others sell them.
I have seen them for as little at $15 ea.

Flow just as well, and unlike K&Ns are actually very good at actually filtering air.

Vee Dub Nut · Post by **Vee Dub Nut** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:55 pm

Devastator wrote:I've designed my ITB's with 1.875" I.D. X 2" O.D. X .062" O-rings around the throttle bores, top and bottom.

Nice... Similar plans for the IDF sandwich plates?

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ITB's, MSEFI, and VW engines.

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