Some doubts to go MS in WBX

[profe]

After a recon work of my engine, I want to improve milage and performance -street use only-. My engine is a DJ with lighter rods and Cheater cam, extra oil radiator and CB Maxi pump oil pump (new heads, new AMC, new barrels/pisntons, bearings, .... No catalyzed and no sensor O2 (Digijet).

I read a lot from MS but still have some doubts.

My intentions:

- start with wasted spark (but don't close the door to sequential ignition in the future).
- semi sequential fuel
- keep as much as possible of harness/hardware original from the van: sensors, injectors, harness, MAP, ...
- I need to correct barometric pressure cos it's a van for street and holidays use. I also want a wide band O2 (the narrow one is not in my mind).

So I will buy an EDIS used kit from Ford and a new wide band O2 sensor (with gauge from DIYAUTOTUNE).

I saw how clever Piladriver was getting the flywheel holes as tach signal. Wich VR sensor can be use for this?. I was thinking in order a specific 36-1 trigger wheel (5 mm is wide enough, isn¡t it?) but I still can reverse myself.

My doubts are:

- Should I keep the distributor (even if is not working) as TDC signal?. Or it would be better remove it and fit a sensor. In this case, which sensor gets in the hole?.

- MS II or MS III?. I will order it unassambly, for sure. I want to run it speed density way.

- It's better keep the EDIS pad or work the sparks directly with IGBT's from the MS?

This is only the begining. Sure I will find more doubts soon but I really want MS the engine.

Thanks in advance. I really apreciate any suggestions from anybody (and apoligized by my poor english)

[Chip Birks]

The MS can perform pretty much all that you are asking from it. I would recommend a new harness though. Especially since you will have to build some kind of adaptor anyway, why not start off with new, good wire.

I am an advocate of ditching the EDIS module, in favor of directly driving the Ford coils. BUT, I did it for racing specific reasons(spark cut rev limiting, and such). The module has proven itself to be plenty reliable time and time again.

Pile's method for ignition pickup seems to work well for him. I use a modified Vanagon distributer for cam pickup, to fire my fully sequential setup it works great.

Setting up for constant baro was required for my application as well. Initially I used two of the stock MS map sensors for the job, now I just use a Mapdaddy 4bar as it has provision for both, and LOTS of boost. Its an easy mod either way.

As far as using stock injectors, MS can drive them, but IIRC yours are probably low impedance, so you will either need to run a resistor for each, or get one of the peak and hold boards sold by JBperf. This is only if you plan to run the MS3/3x combo. The 3x board can only run saturated style injectors in standard form.

MS3/3x is the easiest way to go sequential. But you may be wasting your money if you are not looking forward to all of the other inputs and outputs offered. Pile likes doing things the hard way, just to say he did it But obviously it works well for him.
Good luck!

[fastback]

WBX has high impedance injectors , so you can drive them by the expasion board in sequential.
I would recomend running EDIS4 module for a dailydriver and add the 36-1 trigger pattern in some sort.
The V3.57 has had some problems with dealing with the a VR sensor directly (me included , i swapped to HAll when running direct crank trigger into MS)
the EDIS module is very tolerantt to different 36-1 patterns and was designed for the VR sensor ONLY.
I have run 4 of these setup EDIS4+MS2 on WBX and it works great.!
my advice is to start out in batch mode. lot of things to cope with anyway!

[westypoo]

ill chime in as well. i recently put a WBX into my superbeetle and am also running it on ms1 3.57 controlling both fuel and spark. right now the ignition setup i got is the stock WBX dizzy and stock coil. ive had some small issues with this setup and i also want to switch to some sort of crank triggered setup. overall the WBX is awsome and i love the TQ that they have. soon ill be going to put on a turbo as well. i drive it as much as i can. im still working on a decent timing map tho. my VE map is getting their. good luck man. just my .02 cents, DO IT...megasquirt is only gonna grow more and more. if you want full control of your motors performance and how YOU want it to run....HANDS DOWN, GO MEGASQUIRT!!! good luck, ill be watching.

@ chip, i didnt know your could run the ford EDIS+4 setup and still have spark cut, rev limit. is their a link on how to go about this? id love to know how cause i would love to get this setup going.

@ fastback, you got any maps your willing to share?

[Piledriver]

Either 36-1 or the 6/1 setup I run work fine, and either will work with Hall sensors for both sensors, the only potential issue is that the "circle" of 6 holes in the flywheel must not have any balance holes interfering the sensor can see... They can be JUST outside the circle, you can even offset the sensor some to miss them.

I didn't like any critical sensor or wiring near excessive heat or violent demise (AKA chucked fanbelt)
When the next one goes in it will probably be the same setup, although I'll probably go waste spark so save some outputs--- unless it gets an MS3 board.

The main "advantage" 36-1 has is that it only requires one sensor, so there is one less sensor to fail.
This is a valid consideration, and I would consider a X-1 pattern drilled into the flywheel as a win.
(This could possibly be done incorporating the existing 6 holes BTW, as 6 divides evenly into 36, although 12-1 would be just as valid, FAR easier, leaves more meat and is fully supported, and is probably how I'll go next time)

Higher tooth counts also have a potential timing accuracy advantage at low RPM, but I'm pretty sure it would be way down in the noise.

LS2 coils are VERY easy to drive, all it takes is 2 1K resistors across the outer pair of LED drivers for waste spark.
(And route it out, trivial) This keeps ~all of the ignition noise out of the MS, as the drivers are in the coils, and are self protecting for overdwell etc.

I understand you have injectors, but a fresh set of modern injectors may be a good plan, esp with turbo, if only for the improved spray pattern.

An MS2 with waste spark can also do semi-sequential staged injection, with separate injection timing for the 2 stages...
This is very likely what I'll run if I don't go MS3, then I'll run full sequential/staged and full COP. (this allows per-cylinder timing tables amongst many other features)

4x Yamaha R1 injectors are good >160 HP at 42 PSi, and they are rated to 73 PSI.
8X will have no issues delivering fuel for me, even if I go E85.

[Chip Birks]

@ chip, i didnt know your could run the ford EDIS+4 setup and still have spark cut, rev limit. is their a link on how to go about this? id love to know how cause i would love to get this setup going.

You can't with the module, I ran everything but the module back in the old days with my setup. I direct fired the ford coils, and was able to spark cut.

[Munchhausen]

Best way rev.limiting with EDIS, i heard of, is reduce spark advanced, till you trq. drops significant, just a little before your wanted rev. limit. Then make a fuelcut.
Im running EDIS and making fuelcut. No issues with it.

munch

[profe]

This forum is great!. Thanks all of you for your responses.

MS3/3x is the easiest way to go sequential. But you may be wasting your money if you are not looking forward to all of the other inputs and outputs offered. Pile likes doing things the hard way, just to say he did it But obviously it works well for him.

So difficult to take a decision. Would I miss the MS3 once I finish a MS semisequential?. Problaby no. May be a sequiential fuel injection only worth it in my engine if I fit new -and better- injectors, turbo (it is not in my mind). The only think I am sure is not ordering the V3.57: not good for novels, I think.

LS2 coils are VERY easy to drive, all it takes is 2 1K resistors across the outer pair of LED drivers for waste spark.
(And route it out, trivial) This keeps ~all of the ignition noise out of the MS, as the drivers are in the coils, and are self protecting for overdwell etc.

I am not sure if I can find easily LS2 coils here. If yes, may be is better LS2 with MS2 semi-sequential than Ford wasted spark with MS3. Both options are more or less same bucks, right?

Either 36-1 or the 6/1 setup I run work fine, and either will work with Hall sensors for both sensors, the only potential issue is that the "circle" of 6 holes in the flywheel must not have any balance holes interfering the sensor can see... They can be JUST outside the circle, you can even offset the sensor some to miss them.

Do you have any pic of this?. Saving some money with the trigger wheel could let invest it anywhere else.

WBX has high impedance injectors , so you can drive them by the expasion board in sequential.

Thanks for confirm it. I found the same information.

I would recomend running EDIS4 module for a dailydriver and add the 36-1 trigger pattern in some sort.
The V3.57 has had some problems with dealing with the a VR sensor directly (me included , i swapped to HAll when running direct crank trigger into MS)

Ok. Won't use the V3.57

the EDIS module is very tolerantt to different 36-1 patterns and was designed for the VR sensor ONLY.
I have run 4 of these setup EDIS4+MS2 on WBX and it works great.!
my advice is to start out in batch mode. lot of things to cope with anyway!

If I decide MS2 I will start batch, of course.

Best way rev.limiting with EDIS, i heard of, is reduce spark advanced, till you trq. drops significant, just a little before your wanted rev. limit. Then make a fuelcut.
Im running EDIS and making fuelcut. No issues with it.

munch

How can I be warried about rev limit now?. First I must run the engine

Now seriously. First I will have a look about LS2 issue. If yes, I'll try MS3. If not, I'll take the simple way MS2 with wasted spark

[profe]

I went this morning to a scrap and I found 4 COP's BREMI from a BMW. It was a 6 cyl in line engine but it only has 4 COP's left.

Are the BREMI realible with MS2 or MS3?. I can't find tech info about them to know if they work with 5 or 12 V. And is there any issue with negative or positive signal. I will thank information about noise problems too, if is needed a pnp table to run them or wich transistor is better to run them from the MS.

I still have some days to decide if I keep them or give them back to the scrap, so I would appreciate info in this point.

I got a crankshaft sensor position from a KIA. I gues this will work without problems (it is just a VR sensor, doen¡t it).

Last part I got was O2 sensor from the BMW. It is a 4 threads unit. That means is just a narror band but with thermal resistance, right?. I always read the really usefull 02 sensor is the wide band to help adjusting the mixture.

[westypoo]

as far as getting a wideband O2... i went with a AEM wideband unit and gauge. i got mine off ebay brand new for like $165 shipped! you get the O2 sensor and the gauge. great unit really! highly recommended.

[Munchhausen]

Any partnummber on the cops?

[profe]

Any partnummber on the cops?

BMW
1 748 017
BREMI
11860
27.03.00

I guess last is manufacturing date. And if I am not wrong, that date is not inclouding in the default cops BMW Service Recall I saw anywhere.

[profe]

I've got some pics of the COP's

The pic with total length shows that COP shoul be shorter to fit OK. Can I relocate the B parts of the coils -all together place in a small socket- and use electrical HV cables to the plugs?. If I fit a HV cable, what issues must check first?.

The other option si recolocate the air-box away and let free area to the COP's, right?

[profe]

Sorry I forgot this picture

[profe]

Finally I decided follow Pile advices. I bought a set of LS2 truck coils. Bremi coils will wait for another oportunity by now. I will show somes pics as soon as LS2 arrive.

Now I am isntalling an AEM X-WIFI O2 sensor to see Digijet's AFR values in real conditions. I will try to get information with my stock ECU to see if there is margin to improve performance and increase mpg. As I have a control cruise installed at the van I can see AFR values easily at different cruise speeds. May be a bit more difficult will be see them in acceleration phases.

As soon as I have some values of real AFR and pics I will show them