Semi Returnless fuel system?
- woodsbuggy1
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 pm
Semi Returnless fuel system?
I am getting ready to replumb the fuel lines on my 1776 MS1 turbo build. I am using an Aeromotive FPR.
Can I simply run a line from the fuel pump to the in side of the FPR and run a single line to each fuel rail from the other in port and run a single return line from the out port back to the tank?
Will this work or do I need to actually loop each fuel rail?
Thanks
Kenric
Can I simply run a line from the fuel pump to the in side of the FPR and run a single line to each fuel rail from the other in port and run a single return line from the out port back to the tank?
Will this work or do I need to actually loop each fuel rail?
Thanks
Kenric
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.
- Piledriver
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Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
You can but it won't sweep vapor out of the rails or cool them after a hot restart etc.
You'd have to run the vapor out through the injectors, only way out.
Basically much the same cons as any returnless setup.
Easily worth the $10 in steel line and hose to make a proper loop IMHO, but simplicity has its appeal.
You'd have to run the vapor out through the injectors, only way out.
Basically much the same cons as any returnless setup.
Easily worth the $10 in steel line and hose to make a proper loop IMHO, but simplicity has its appeal.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- woodsbuggy1
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 pm
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
OK Thanks, just curious if it would work since so many OEM systems are now returnless. If it was to easy it wouldn't be any fun
Take Care
Kenric
Take Care
Kenric
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.
- MarioVelotta
- Posts: 4083
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
The OEMs are also using PWM on the pump to help keep excess heat down as well as getting rid of the regulator in some cases.
Ms3 has some good girl pump control like this in the newer firmware versions.
Ms3 has some good girl pump control like this in the newer firmware versions.
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1600 ITB NA - 18sec
1600 Supercharged - 13psi - 15.40 @ 84.66mph
1600 Turbo - 185hp 250tq!! Going for 200
2276 Turbo - 15psi - 11.537 @ 115.74mph
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- woodsbuggy1
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 pm
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Thanks for the input, I will replumb things with more hardline and short rubber lines.
Thanks
Kenric
Thanks
Kenric
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.
- Piledriver
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Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Put "partial" bubble flares at the end of the steel lines, use grease to put the lines on if needed
OEMs will do just about anything to save a few cents/car, see GM and the ignition switch fiasco.
It doesn't have to work well, it just has to work well enough.
Worst part is, GM isn't the first OEM to be bitten by the same "junk hanging on the keys" issue.
It just caused less damage in the VAG and Mercedes designs, eventually killing the locks rather than the occupants...
Of course last I checked all cars still come with column locks as "required" by insurance companies to prevent theft.
This kills a few folks a year as well when they lock when you hit a pothole at 70 MPH.
This "feature" is blessedly easy to "disarm" on older VWs and even Mk4 Jettas...
OEMs will do just about anything to save a few cents/car, see GM and the ignition switch fiasco.
It doesn't have to work well, it just has to work well enough.
Worst part is, GM isn't the first OEM to be bitten by the same "junk hanging on the keys" issue.
It just caused less damage in the VAG and Mercedes designs, eventually killing the locks rather than the occupants...
Of course last I checked all cars still come with column locks as "required" by insurance companies to prevent theft.
This kills a few folks a year as well when they lock when you hit a pothole at 70 MPH.
This "feature" is blessedly easy to "disarm" on older VWs and even Mk4 Jettas...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Paul H
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
The Jaguar AJ V8 engine has 8 injectors on a dead head fuel rail with a 7mm feed hose and makes 300hp NA.
so no need to loop the fuel line. You still need a fuel line running across on a dual throttle set up so you might as well just run the fuel through both rails but if you have problems with rails hitting bodywork then end feeding the rails is fine
so no need to loop the fuel line. You still need a fuel line running across on a dual throttle set up so you might as well just run the fuel through both rails but if you have problems with rails hitting bodywork then end feeding the rails is fine
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Great Example...
...Jags have had chronic hot restart problems ever since they went to that brain damaged setup they inherited from Ford.
Perhaps just not a frequent in the Sunny UK... But in other locales 90F is not generally considered unbearably hot weather
Google is your friend.
In any case, the Jag is water cooled and the heads the injectors are thermally tied to probably never exceed ~230F.
The heads a few mm from an ACVWs injectors generally run >350F, although I will admit they will cool down faster, but a lot of that heat gets into the manifolds.
Only way to tell is try it. Personally, I'd spend the extra few $ on steel line and hose/clamps, rather than sitting in the parking lot for an hour to see if it will finally go. (I have played that game before)
If I don't actually crank it, listen closely I can hear the FPR and pump change tone when the vapor gets purged out of the loop after a second or so.
...Jags have had chronic hot restart problems ever since they went to that brain damaged setup they inherited from Ford.
Perhaps just not a frequent in the Sunny UK... But in other locales 90F is not generally considered unbearably hot weather
Google is your friend.
In any case, the Jag is water cooled and the heads the injectors are thermally tied to probably never exceed ~230F.
The heads a few mm from an ACVWs injectors generally run >350F, although I will admit they will cool down faster, but a lot of that heat gets into the manifolds.
Only way to tell is try it. Personally, I'd spend the extra few $ on steel line and hose/clamps, rather than sitting in the parking lot for an hour to see if it will finally go. (I have played that game before)
If I don't actually crank it, listen closely I can hear the FPR and pump change tone when the vapor gets purged out of the loop after a second or so.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
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Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Same here, my reg actually hums for a second or two then the fuel hits it and it's quiet.
- Paul H
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
I suspect most engines will suffers from hot start problems at some time but considering the Jag V8 has a 5 foot long fuel rail compared to 5 inch on a pair of IDF's = much less of a potential problem also a fuel rail mounted high on a TB will be cooler than a rail mounted deep in the banks of a v8 regadless of max head temps. If you tee off right at the back of the fuel rail there is only 20mm to the injector inlet and any vapour build up can be purged with initial start pulse especially if you can link in to head temps and increase pulse for hot startsPiledriver wrote:Great Example...
...Jags have had chronic hot restart problems ever since they went to that brain damaged setup they inherited from Ford.
Perhaps just not a frequent in the Sunny UK... But in other locales 90F is not generally considered unbearably hot weather
Google is your friend.
In any case, the Jag is water cooled and the heads the injectors are thermally tied to probably never exceed ~230F.
The heads a few mm from an ACVWs injectors generally run >350F, although I will admit they will cool down faster, but a lot of that heat gets into the manifolds.
Only way to tell is try it. Personally, I'd spend the extra few $ on steel line and hose/clamps, rather than sitting in the parking lot for an hour to see if it will finally go. (I have played that game before)
If I don't actually crank it, listen closely I can hear the FPR and pump change tone when the vapor gets purged out of the loop after a second or so.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
That would probably work fine, but I'm still not certain there would be any significant cost savings or reduction of effort. (tiny upside, large potential downside)
Just don't try fully returnless with the regulator at the pump, at the tank.
Works on motorcycles with ~ 2 foot long fuel systems. Usually.
Just don't try fully returnless with the regulator at the pump, at the tank.
Works on motorcycles with ~ 2 foot long fuel systems. Usually.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Paul H
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
We do this mainly because of fuel hose fittings fouling bodywork on Beetles using IDF throttle bodies with outboard injectors, just plug one end and feed from the back.It neatens the install with less fuel line on display
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Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Sounds like you could use Mario's rails.Paul H wrote:We do this mainly because of fuel hose fittings fouling bodywork on Beetles using IDF throttle bodies with outboard injectors, just plug one end and feed from the back.It neatens the install with less fuel line on display
- Paul H
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
Nah I just use these on Type 1 motorsforeverska wrote:Sounds like you could use Mario's rails.Paul H wrote:We do this mainly because of fuel hose fittings fouling bodywork on Beetles using IDF throttle bodies with outboard injectors, just plug one end and feed from the back.It neatens the install with less fuel line on display
Inboard injectors
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Semi Returnless fuel system?
So does Mario, he likes your stuff.Paul H wrote:Nah I just use these on Type 1 motorsforeverska wrote:Sounds like you could use Mario's rails.Paul H wrote:We do this mainly because of fuel hose fittings fouling bodywork on Beetles using IDF throttle bodies with outboard injectors, just plug one end and feed from the back.It neatens the install with less fuel line on display
Inboard injectors
His rails have the in/out on one end, and are very compact.
(I know he posted some pics here on the forums, but here is a link to the pic of one type on thedubshop.net, too big to directly show)
http://dxkdul4cprxwx.cloudfront.net/56c ... 20x820.jpg
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.