WUE settings

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Michael
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WUE settings

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:31 am

Hey Guys,

Looking to set up my WUE settings. Curious to see what you guys have it set for a comparison if I'm in the ball park. My warm up is horrible; gotta always apply throttle near idle for the first 5-10 mins of driving before she idles properly, else she dies.

My engine is 2276cc.

Thanks,
Michael

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Piledriver
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:37 am

What flavor of ECU/config and where's your CLT sensor?

If it's MS, the defaults for ASE and WUE are typically horribly stinky rich, like for a TBi setup on a SBC.

MS3 is no different' I got it running yesterday, drove it 40 miles to work today, and I'm still pulling some fuel at ~cold startup every time.
A few more tries it will be reasonable, I'm still feeding it too much cranking fuel, it still won't "take off" at the bump of the key like it should without some help for a few seconds, WB is nailed at 10:1 (and is warmed up first)
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Michael
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:11 pm

I'm running MS3 with the CLT sensor in the head. (stock location 1/2 side).

About it running rich, I think you're right as it does stink of fuel while I'm warming up. Also I thinking if I need to apply throttle, it helps lean the mixture up to the point where it can combust. I don't know the AFR art this point, haven't had a chance to grab the datalog off it yet. Just hoping to see some screenshots so I can have a starting point.

I'm having the same issue as you for the cranking as well, takes a few seconds, but if I crack the trottle open a bit, it starts right away.

I still have a hard time understanding the differences between WUE and ASE. It seems like these can be combine as once an engine is already warm, is there a need for ASE? lol, may be a whole other topic.

Thanks Piledriver!

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Piledriver
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:53 pm

WUE and ASE are two entirely different animals that overlap.

ASE can be set to only give you an extra kick that tapers off and is done after a set# of cycles or seconds.

It's actually probably easier to flatline the curve on both and tune one or the other, and then clean up when combined.

WUR never HAS to go "off"
...on my setup as I add some fuel above "normal" CLT.

I do similar with "cold timing" and pull a little timing when hot, w/slight linear retard across "normal" temp range.
(the "normal" range on an aircooled motor is a LOT wider than any steamer)

Was doing same for last ~2 years on my MS2-sequential setup I just replaced to go MS3.
I'll be much happier when I get back to parity, some areas the MS3 already feels better.
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Michael
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Michael » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:19 pm

Pile,

After some more tuning, I discovered that the WUE is left on @ 224* @ 100%. (224* is my operating temp) Saw this and I tired to reduce it and the engine just dies. So I move it back and it all works again. I'm thinking I need to set WUE to 0% @ ~160-180* and scale my VE table up 100% to compensate. Then VEAL it to make fine adjustments again. This may solve another issue I see which VEAL adjustments never seems to match up with the targeted AFR.

I'm still curious as to why you would want to leave WUE active after the engine has fully warmed? Why not just compensate with a richer AFR?

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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:36 pm

Because I want more fuel when it gets really hot in traffic.

Any tune is only valid under exactly identical conditions.

The various sensors and the FW largely compensate for the MAT/CHT changes in the model, but they are probably not optimized for aircooled motors, which operate over a much larger range of "normal" than water squirters.

Higher CHT---may need slightly less timing/fuel, as evaporation in the port works better.
(we are talking a couple degrees and ~1-2% or so from 220-270F CLT)

At VERY high CLT (280+~=350+ @3600 RPM CHT on MY setup) I like more fuel for cooling. (~5%)
There's absolutely no reason/advantage having it turn off, you can make the indicator go away if it bugs you.

I have a "flat spot" in my typical CLT range where it normally runs (~235-240F indicated @3600) where I typically limit VEAL or MLV corrections to.

That reminds me, I have to go change a perforated rad hose for some friend of my daughters this afternoon.
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Steve Arndt » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:15 pm

How high temperature does your coolant enrichment table go? Mine goes up to 115C. I sit right there when fully HOT because of where my sensor is located in the bottom of the head fins. It works great for warm up fueling, but isn't helpful as an over-temperature enrichment since I'm sitting at the high end under normal conditions.

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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:16 pm

Steve Arndt wrote:How high temperature does your coolant enrichment table go? Mine goes up to 115C. I sit right there when fully HOT because of where my sensor is located in the bottom of the head fins. It works great for warm up fueling, but isn't helpful as an over-temperature enrichment since I'm sitting at the high end under normal conditions.

I take it past the "normal" range in case something stuff up.
The highest I have actually seen it at the current location is ~287F, and that was just after drop to idle after a hard highway run, it dropped like a rock soon after.

I have a T4, and I'm usinga an open element GM sensor at the hot ai oulets of the underside tim ~3mm from #2s exhaust tube, the exhaust cooling air from the hottest part of the heads.

I'm considering TCs on the lower studs of the ex against the heads, it is the very hottest part of the T4 head.
Response seems ~identical to under the plugs and sucks a lot less.
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Rikard
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Rikard » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:52 pm

Michael,

you need VUE = 100% @ operating temp. MS multiplies the VE table with VUE and ASE to calculate the fuel required.
If VUE = 0 your engine will not get any fuel.

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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:59 pm

Yes, 100% is zero enrichment.
I inadvertently set my ASE to actual zero once, made starting very interesting.

Most MS settings are 100%=nominal.
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Michael
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Michael » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:39 pm

This was exactly my problem I was encountering which was cleared up after talking to Mario.

I had a pretty funky graph which involved dipping down to 60% at ~120* and back to 90%... just me playing around... was wondering why it would run like crap for a little bit then back to normal.

Anyways, it is now all adjusted with my final numbers @ 100%. And so far it been running very well. Now on to adjusting my idle air valve.

Engine is now stopping sometime when dropping to idle from hi revs.

Thanks guys!

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Re: WUE settings

Post by MarioVelotta » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:24 am

In MS3 the ASE needs to be zeroed for no enrichment. Warmup enrichment 100 is no enrichment. Kinda funky...
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Re: WUE settings

Post by Piledriver » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:01 am

"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from."
Andrew Tanenbaum

I eventually got straightened out on msextra on that issue, as I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I was getting 30+ms PW at while starting---It was gagging the engine when ase hit. Flatlining it at 100% didn't really help...

The curve LOOKED perfect,, it was just shifted up by 100% :lol:

I'm just now getting it to the point where I almost have "bump the key start" again.
The 6/1 setup I run takes a ~1/2 second or so to sync at crank speed, then it's in CLidle in a very short timeframe.
(The 3 wire Bosch IAC valve works wonders on MS3, my old valve I scrounged worked, but not big enough for startup air)

Looks like my Class 10 Microcenter SDcard can manage <5ms updates...
Logs get huge in a hurry, it's almost way too much information.

But for nailing the startup it's very useful, you get to watch everything in slo mo.
I wish you could grab hires timing wheel data with it. (maybe you can, haven't tried that)

One of the "tricks" I learned is that it really needs much less timing at 200 RPM...(I set on the 500RPM line)
Seems obvious, but it helped a lot.

A running text/picture analysis of a good/bad sdcard log for startup (explaining the sequence of events when you hit the key in extreme slow motion) would be really helpful to all IMHO.

I'll try and put something together and post it for dissection/critique.

I need to get a switch/indicator installed for logging.
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Re: WUE settings

Post by thedrew » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:35 am

Can someone post what their graph looks like? I'm struggling to get a proper warmup and have probably screwed it all up :)

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