Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

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danielzink
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Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:06 pm

Hey all,

I've been beating my head against the wall for a few months now.

I'm trying to run this distributor with just the minimum connections and carbs.

I know it can be done - I've seen it on youtube (so it must be real right ?:D )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8557EepIJ8Q
And he's running without a cap and rotor....he's just using the hall effect to run directly from coil to one plug.

Here's another one - though he dpesn't go into much detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H9YVh3FIoI

Here's my testing "rig":
Image

Image


I've got a Ford 1986 Escort distributor:

Image
Image
Image

Image
Image

Luckily the key fits a type4 distributor drive exactly:

Image
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On the bottom of the distributor is where the TFI Module plugs in:

Image

"E-Core" Coil:

Image
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Now....I've tried every one of these configurations...to no avail:

Image
Image
Image
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This is the "Youtube guy's" wiring:

Image

In my mind.....isn't a Pertronix a "Hall Effect module" as well ?

Why couldn't I run this distributor just with the (3) connections on the bottom ?

Back to this picture:
Image

We've got:
Ground: (grounds to the distributor body)
Power
and Signal (tach - ???)

Keep in mind that this rig works with an 009 and blue coil. I've also tried subbing a blue coil for the e-core coil (no luck).

Any ideas ?

Thanks !

Dan
Last edited by danielzink on Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:39 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by sideshow » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:03 am

I am not following on what you are trying to do, my only experience with EEC-4 (2.9l B2) is that the computer runs the timing adjustments...that isn't what you have with the weights and vacuum can.

A great simple guide for my application;
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_li ... stic.shtml
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by Piledriver » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:21 am

A Pertronix or Compufire module is a hall effect combined with a ~dumb coil driver.
It works fine as a trigger given a 12v pullup.

TFI is still looking for an ECU to control dwell IIRC.
It is what actually fires the coil via the module.
(I will make a WAG the ECU provides battery voltage correction for the dwell)

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/TFI.htm

Note Megasquirt (B&G) and MSExtra frequently are wired/function much differently.
Happen to be the same here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V30_H ... f#page=107

You may be able to rig up something with a 555 timer to provide a "spout" signal with a dwell time of your choosing...
... but that's a little too duct tape even for me..

What you may seek is provided by a common Bosch/VW module that controls dwell by itself, (assuming a compatible coil)
All you have to do is trigger it and it takes care of the rest.(assuming the trigger is correct of course)
The coil you have may or may not require a different dwell time. YMMV.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_ ... .htm#bosch

The early (T4) Vanagon setups work as you desire, I think using that module.
It bolts into a T1, T4 or WBX. (I have one of these setups on the shelf)

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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:46 am

Okay.

What I'm trying to do is this:

Image
Image
Image
Image

So I know....it works.

I just thought maybe I could eliminate the TFI module somehow and just use the hall effect in the distributor to trigger some other sort of ignitor...
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by The Newf » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:50 am

[quote="Piledriver"]A Pertronix or Compufire module is a hall effect combined with a ~dumb coil driver.
It works fine as a trigger given a 12v pullup.

TFI is still looking for an ECU to control dwell IIRC.
It is what actually fires the coil via the module.
(I will make a WAG the ECU provides battery voltage correction for the dwell)

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/TFI.htm

Note Megasquirt (B&G) and MSExtra frequently are wired/function much differently.
Happen to be the same here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V30_H ... f#page=107

You may be able to rig up something with a 555 timer to provide a "spout" signal with a dwell time of your choosing...
... but that's a little too duct tape even for me..

What you may seek is provided by a common Bosch/VW module that controls dwell by itself, (assuming a compatible coil)
All you have to do is trigger it and it takes care of the rest.(assuming the trigger is correct of course)
The coil you have may or may not require a different dwell time. YMMV.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_ ... .htm#bosch

The early (T4) Vanagon setups work as you desire, I think using that module.
It bolts into a T1, T4 or WBX. (I have one of these setups on the shelf)

Don't let the magic blue smoke out.

The ecu/ecm only really graphs the spark:the module does the buffering/dwelling.It will need a module like the tfi,or even an older blue grommet eec module to do the coil switching/driving properly

Also remeber that the hall cell was only designed to supply base timing signal to the tfi module which does the actual coil swithcing on/off.It was not intended to carry the neccessary current to switch the coil itself

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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:14 pm

The Newf wrote: The ecu/ecm only really graphs the spark:the module does the buffering/dwelling.


It will need a module like the tfi,or even an older blue grommet eec module to do the coil switching/driving properly

Also remeber that the hall cell was only designed to supply base timing signal to the tfi module which does the actual coil swithcing on/off.It was not intended to carry the neccessary current to switch the coil itself


That's Duraspark correct ?
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by Piledriver » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:05 pm

You can do what you want using the Bosch coil driver module
Probably.
I haven't used the ford TFI.
Bosch module expects a pull to gnd trigger, and will even work with points.

You will also need to provide a ground to the plug bracket on you test rig.
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by The Newf » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:11 pm

Piledriver wrote:You can do what you want using the Bosch coil driver module
Probably.
I haven't used the ford TFI.
Bosch module expects a pull to gnd trigger, and will even work with points.

You will also need to provide a ground to the plug bracket on you test rig.
Yes...bosch coil driver will work very well.Even has a good heat sink.You can use pretty well any hall cell fed module.

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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:31 pm

Thanks you guys.

I was nearly at the end my rope....just about to throw it the towel and give up.

It's funny how a sometimes you just need some collective minds to give you the kick in the pants you need...

I've spent the day researching and I feel pretty good about the driver module.

I came up with lots of hits.

I've found several of this same diagram - so I figure it's the best one to start with in terms of wiring it up:

Image

Hopefully you all can put up with more silly questions along the way.

Tons of cars used that module. I researched matching coils for it - and some show an "e-core" looking coil but most show a standard Bosch "Blue" coil. I have plenty of those hanging around.


Another diagram I found was this:

Image

Same layout - though they label pin 5 and pin 6 (input + and input - )

Is this a concern ? is there a way to determine which is + and - ? does it really matter ?

As per the TFI diagrams and this:

Image

Would I assume "power" is + and PIP signal is - ?

The GND spade grounds directly to the distributor casing.

Thanks again !
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by Piledriver » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:42 pm

That coil drives the later "transistorized ignition" low-Z coils, .6 ohm vs a ~4 ohm Bosch blue.
It would probably run with a "blue" coil but not nearly as good a spark, the dwell will be wrong.
It is likely to work reasonably with the Ecore shown previously, or a lowz mallory etc, but the "matching" coil would be the best plan, as the mid-late 80s-early 90s coils kicked pretty hard.

One thing that may or may not work:
If the current Ford module controls dwell, and the distributor contains an advance mechanism...
...you may be able to loop pip back to spout as the trigger.
(assumes both are same voltage, proper polarity signals, may need pullup or pull down, don't have one.).

If the distributor is fixed/no advance, its only a trigger and you should consider a microsquirt or such to actually control your ignition. It will work with what you have, although a waste spark direct drive would have ~no moving parts and probably work better.

What does the trigger wheel look like in that setup? I stuck a 36 tooth steel spur gear off a gas RC truck with one of the tooth gaps filled in as a 36-1 distributor wheel in an old 009... Running sequential fuel and spark off one sensor for awhile now.
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:34 pm

Piledriver wrote:That coil drives the later "transistorized ignition" low-Z coils, .6 ohm vs a ~4 ohm Bosch blue.
It would probably run with a "blue" coil but not nearly as good a spark, the dwell will be wrong.
It is likely to work reasonably with the Ecore shown previously, or a lowz mallory etc, but the "matching" coil would be the best plan, as the mid-late 80s-early 90s coils kicked pretty hard.

One thing that may or may not work:
If the current Ford module controls dwell, and the distributor contains an advance mechanism...
...you may be able to loop pip back to spout as the trigger.
(assumes both are same voltage, proper polarity signals, may need pullup or pull down, don't have one.).

If the distributor is fixed/no advance, its only a trigger and you should consider a microsquirt or such to actually control your ignition. It will work with what you have, although a waste spark direct drive would have ~no moving parts and probably work better.

What does the trigger wheel look like in that setup? I stuck a 36 tooth steel spur gear off a gas RC truck with one of the tooth gaps filled in as a 36-1 distributor wheel in an old 009... Running sequential fuel and spark off one sensor for awhile now.
No Prob. I'll try it with the e-core coil...or looks like these can be had for 35ish dollars: PerTronix 45011 Flame-Thrower II 45,000 Volt 0.6 ohm Coil

The distributor does have a vacuum advance.

Here's the trigger mechanism:

Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by Piledriver » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:52 am

I'd try feeding PIP back into SPOUT, after verifying the voltages, since its a full up vac+mechanical distributor.
May need a pullup or pulldown resistor, may need a 5v>12v buffer, no telling without researching what the signals look like.
(The relevant Subaru or Ford manuals may have useful troubleshooting info)

Try to use a coil known compatible with the driver since you can't control the dwell.
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:08 am

Piledriver wrote:I'd try feeding PIP back into SPOUT, after verifying the voltages, since its a full up vac+mechanical distributor.
May need a pullup or pulldown resistor, may need a 5v>12v buffer, no telling without researching what the signals look like.
(The relevant Subaru or Ford manuals may have useful troubleshooting info)

Try to use a coil known compatible with the driver since you can't control the dwell.
I think we're getting crossed up here.

I'll try the TFI PIP to SPOUT this weekend and see if that gets me any spark.

But I'm about 110% sure I'm going to bin the TFI module and go with the Bosch module.

Question is - re: the Bosch module they label "Hall in" and "Hall supply" or "-input" and "+input"....

Wondering how this references the plugs on the bottom of the distributor (re: GND/POWER/PIP SIGNAL)
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by Piledriver » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:09 pm

The thing is, I'm not sure you can/should entirely "bin" that module, could be a vr setup and amp looking at it, how does the Subaru manual describe it? does it produce a pip signal if you slowly rotate it by hand?
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Re: Hall Effect distributor help - minimal connections ?

Post by danielzink » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:43 pm

Piledriver wrote:The thing is, I'm not sure you can/should entirely "bin" that module, could be a vr setup and amp looking at it, how does the Subaru manual describe it? does it produce a pip signal if you slowly rotate it by hand?


Unfortunately it's a 1984 Ford Escort Distributor..... :shock:

I've got nothing to reference it to on the Subaru side....I'm trying to cobble this thing together.

It's been done - over at the Ultimate Subaru message board. I PM'd the guy but he's treating it like national security...

and yeah....It fits onto the back of an EJ22 head with little to no modification...I'll be running 48IDF's...and I'm building it as a Frankenmotor...
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