Mini Cam Sync

Moderator: Tom Notch

Post Reply
subwoofer
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:14 pm
Location: Sandefjord, Norway

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by subwoofer » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:00 pm

Piledriver wrote: You can actually do either, twist or tweak in the offset, but the recommended sync tooth offset is 70-90 degrees as supposedly the ECU is less busy at that point in the cycle. (*probably doesn't matter on MS2extra/MS3 but it's still in the docs)
I think the reason is that at half way between compressions the crank acceleration is close to zero. This makes the missing tooth detection a lot more robust during cranking.
Joachim
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro

Diesel is good for cleaning parts...

Steve Arndt
Posts: 7185
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Go Boise State, ID
Contact:

Re: Mini Cam Sync -

Post by Steve Arndt » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:06 pm

I have some pictures to share of the Redline Weber 24-1 drop in trigger wheel setup that is in the works.
These pics show the unit mounted in a lathe chuck for testing up to 6000 RPMs. A billet top cover is in the works to finish off the package when used for triggering only. It is also possible to use a rotor and single coil. The fitted sensor is an OEM Honda unit.


Image


Image


Here is a link to a datalog from a Redline ECU that was used during testing which demonstrate a clean wheel pattern decode and RPM trace up to ~6000 RPMs. (CSV spreadsheet file open in excel, plain text):

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B12q4Qf ... VdpcWg4YTg


I am now an authorized Redline supplier. PM me for details. I will be able to provide the product and support (ECU packages, sensors, wiring, IGNx coils)

User avatar
MarioVelotta
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Monroe, Wa.
Contact:

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by MarioVelotta » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:57 pm

Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
The Dub Shop
Mario@thedubshop.net
2276 Turbo - 92 Octane
11.537 @ 115.74mph - 15psi
1600dp - 18sec @ 0psi :lol:
Facebook-Tech-Store

Steve Arndt
Posts: 7185
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Go Boise State, ID
Contact:

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Steve Arndt » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:08 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
I guess I could have started a new topic, but we would have had three threads at once on the same/similar topic then.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21715
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Piledriver » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:25 pm

Steve Arndt wrote:
MarioVelotta wrote:Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
I guess I could have started a new topic, but we would have had three threads at once on the same/similar topic then.

..There's a first time for everything, right? :twisted:
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Redline Weber

Mini Cam Sync : Missing Tooth Location

Post by Redline Weber » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:32 am

The chance for a MORE definite detection would exist if missing tooth was "moving" slower, in the area of compression.
Tooth timers in reality can "see" this effect, though it is "ruled out" due to MUCH less time change than a missing tooth or two missing teeth.
Knock Sensing is able to be seen by the tooth timers AND can be greater than TWO missing teeth.

NOW, A great topic, "where should missing tooth be located ? ", is something that can be described.
The choice referenced is the most accurate position, like splitting a hair, almost unmeasurable.

This choice is also described in the patent as 'best location" for an accurate Spark Instant.

The "missing tooth" location would NOT want to be in an area wherein a spark could be ordered.

Thus a choice of 66 degrees to 78 degrees is SO common, the reason is to fit most common engines without change between four/six/eight cylinders.

Lance

User avatar
Devastator
Posts: 3385
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:51 am
Location: Kinda near Tucson, Arizona

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Devastator » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:06 pm

Is that 6000 RPM engine speed or Dizzy speed, (3K)? Not many lathes turn 6K.
Devastator's Build Thread

Sandrail
2276 ACVW
MS2Extra EFI W/spark
T3 Turbo making 10 lbs boost
Burning E85

"If everything seems under control, you're just not
going fast enough."
Mario Andretti

Redline Weber

Mini Cam Sync

Post by Redline Weber » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:51 am

Your observation is CORRECT, Gear Down engine speed=Lath speed of 3000 RPM.

Lance

User avatar
Camo
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Camo » Mon May 05, 2014 6:47 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:
The initial V1 will only be for a cam sync.

Research is already begun for V2 that will be a 12-1 trigger wheel. Full sequential will be possible from this version.
Hi Mario,

just reading back over this topic and as you know, I am one of the ones on the waiting list :lol:

Just want to confirm (due to my lack of knowledge) the V1 with single magnet pickup, is this type suitable for controlling sequential fuel injection. I have a crank angle pickup on my engine I am building, but just want to make sure what I am getting is right for my way of thinking.

Is the missing tooth wheel (12-1) type mini cam sync meant to be instead of fitting a crankshaft angle sensor.

Cheers, Kev

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21715
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Piledriver » Mon May 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Yes, the 12-1 (or any suitable missing tooth wheel setup) can be used by itself at cam speed for full sequential, single sensor, MS2-extra and MS3. (not sure about MS1) Likely will also work with other EMS...

The current single tooth distributor speed unit is for use in addition to a crank wheel for sequential on MS1/2/3 or any other EMS that needs it. It works very well, and is nice and small.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Camo
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Camo » Mon May 05, 2014 7:12 pm

Thanks for such a quick response. I agree they look nice and compact and that is why I went with Mario's setup. I bought one last year and I'm just waiting for these to be completed.

I have MS3 and as mentioned crank angle sensor. So in my case, I can use either the V1 or the V2 when completed. Good stuff and thanks for your help.

Kev

foreverska
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:24 pm

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by foreverska » Fri May 09, 2014 12:59 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:Got the couple of changes made to the files with some upgrades and sent them off. I know the shop has some other big projects going right now, I don't know if they will be worked in between operations or if he is finishing the other things first.
Somewhere along the line I lost emailed updates to this thread but its good to see this post. I'm going into an interesting project pretty soon and it'd be nice to see the second run come out around the same time period that I finish it.

User avatar
Chip Birks
Posts: 2426
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:59 pm
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:36 am

I have the first of the new version installed as of about 12 hours ago, the car fully synced up within a couple turns of the engine and fired right up. This sensor replaced my open topped Vanagon distributor that I have run as my sync for a couple of years. Not the prettiest of engines. But it tends to do the job for which it was intended. Thanks Mario!
Image

User avatar
Camo
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Camo » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:36 am

Excellent stuff Chip. When you say the car fully synced up within a couple turns, do you need to position the cam sync in a particular spot like a distributor so the injector timing is spot on. I guess that the pickup inside needs to be timed or very close to the sweet spot so fuel is injected at the right time.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, I'm new to EFI and just starting to fit my engine up with MS3x and will also be going full sequential fuel and ignition.

Good to see that Mario has started sending out the orders, I am looking forward to fitting my new engine up with one.

Cheers, Kev

User avatar
Chip Birks
Posts: 2426
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:59 pm
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah

Re: Mini Cam Sync

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:15 am

As far as positioning goes, i just dropped it in and went. I may still dial it a little better in the future. I think i've heard that ms doesn't really care where the cam signal is, as long as it doesn't hit at the same time as the missing tooth signal on the crank. I guess that can confuse the computer a little. i am no expert here though.

Post Reply