I think the reason is that at half way between compressions the crank acceleration is close to zero. This makes the missing tooth detection a lot more robust during cranking.Piledriver wrote: You can actually do either, twist or tweak in the offset, but the recommended sync tooth offset is 70-90 degrees as supposedly the ECU is less busy at that point in the cycle. (*probably doesn't matter on MS2extra/MS3 but it's still in the docs)
Mini Cam Sync
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
Joachim
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...
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Re: Mini Cam Sync -
I have some pictures to share of the Redline Weber 24-1 drop in trigger wheel setup that is in the works.
These pics show the unit mounted in a lathe chuck for testing up to 6000 RPMs. A billet top cover is in the works to finish off the package when used for triggering only. It is also possible to use a rotor and single coil. The fitted sensor is an OEM Honda unit.
![Image](http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx360/stevenarndt/24-1%20drop%20in%20trigger/009_24-1_1_zpsb35290a9.jpg)
![Image](http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx360/stevenarndt/24-1%20drop%20in%20trigger/009_24-1_2_zps7c33d8b1.jpg)
Here is a link to a datalog from a Redline ECU that was used during testing which demonstrate a clean wheel pattern decode and RPM trace up to ~6000 RPMs. (CSV spreadsheet file open in excel, plain text):
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B12q4Qf ... VdpcWg4YTg
I am now an authorized Redline supplier. PM me for details. I will be able to provide the product and support (ECU packages, sensors, wiring, IGNx coils)
These pics show the unit mounted in a lathe chuck for testing up to 6000 RPMs. A billet top cover is in the works to finish off the package when used for triggering only. It is also possible to use a rotor and single coil. The fitted sensor is an OEM Honda unit.
![Image](http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx360/stevenarndt/24-1%20drop%20in%20trigger/009_24-1_1_zpsb35290a9.jpg)
![Image](http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx360/stevenarndt/24-1%20drop%20in%20trigger/009_24-1_2_zps7c33d8b1.jpg)
Here is a link to a datalog from a Redline ECU that was used during testing which demonstrate a clean wheel pattern decode and RPM trace up to ~6000 RPMs. (CSV spreadsheet file open in excel, plain text):
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B12q4Qf ... VdpcWg4YTg
I am now an authorized Redline supplier. PM me for details. I will be able to provide the product and support (ECU packages, sensors, wiring, IGNx coils)
Steve
My Baja Build
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- MarioVelotta
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
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1600 ITB NA - 18sec
1600 Supercharged - 13psi - 15.40 @ 84.66mph
1600 Turbo - 185hp 250tq!! Going for 200
2276 Turbo - 15psi - 11.537 @ 115.74mph
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
I guess I could have started a new topic, but we would have had three threads at once on the same/similar topic then.MarioVelotta wrote:Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
Steve
My Baja Build
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- Piledriver
- Moderator
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
Steve Arndt wrote:I guess I could have started a new topic, but we would have had three threads at once on the same/similar topic then.MarioVelotta wrote:Wow, not even your own thread! Not really for cam sync, but full sync. What is the price?
..There's a first time for everything, right?
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
Mini Cam Sync : Missing Tooth Location
The chance for a MORE definite detection would exist if missing tooth was "moving" slower, in the area of compression.
Tooth timers in reality can "see" this effect, though it is "ruled out" due to MUCH less time change than a missing tooth or two missing teeth.
Knock Sensing is able to be seen by the tooth timers AND can be greater than TWO missing teeth.
NOW, A great topic, "where should missing tooth be located ? ", is something that can be described.
The choice referenced is the most accurate position, like splitting a hair, almost unmeasurable.
This choice is also described in the patent as 'best location" for an accurate Spark Instant.
The "missing tooth" location would NOT want to be in an area wherein a spark could be ordered.
Thus a choice of 66 degrees to 78 degrees is SO common, the reason is to fit most common engines without change between four/six/eight cylinders.
Lance
Tooth timers in reality can "see" this effect, though it is "ruled out" due to MUCH less time change than a missing tooth or two missing teeth.
Knock Sensing is able to be seen by the tooth timers AND can be greater than TWO missing teeth.
NOW, A great topic, "where should missing tooth be located ? ", is something that can be described.
The choice referenced is the most accurate position, like splitting a hair, almost unmeasurable.
This choice is also described in the patent as 'best location" for an accurate Spark Instant.
The "missing tooth" location would NOT want to be in an area wherein a spark could be ordered.
Thus a choice of 66 degrees to 78 degrees is SO common, the reason is to fit most common engines without change between four/six/eight cylinders.
Lance
- Devastator
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- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:51 am
Re: Mini Cam Sync
Is that 6000 RPM engine speed or Dizzy speed, (3K)? Not many lathes turn 6K.
Devastator's Build Thread
Sandrail
2.4 liter, supercharged Chevy Ecotec
"If everything seems under control, you're just not
going fast enough."
Mario Andretti
Sandrail
2.4 liter, supercharged Chevy Ecotec
"If everything seems under control, you're just not
going fast enough."
Mario Andretti
Mini Cam Sync
Your observation is CORRECT, Gear Down engine speed=Lath speed of 3000 RPM.
Lance
Lance
- Camo
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:55 pm
Re: Mini Cam Sync
Hi Mario,MarioVelotta wrote:
The initial V1 will only be for a cam sync.
Research is already begun for V2 that will be a 12-1 trigger wheel. Full sequential will be possible from this version.
just reading back over this topic and as you know, I am one of the ones on the waiting list
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Just want to confirm (due to my lack of knowledge) the V1 with single magnet pickup, is this type suitable for controlling sequential fuel injection. I have a crank angle pickup on my engine I am building, but just want to make sure what I am getting is right for my way of thinking.
Is the missing tooth wheel (12-1) type mini cam sync meant to be instead of fitting a crankshaft angle sensor.
Cheers, Kev
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
Yes, the 12-1 (or any suitable missing tooth wheel setup) can be used by itself at cam speed for full sequential, single sensor, MS2-extra and MS3. (not sure about MS1) Likely will also work with other EMS...
The current single tooth distributor speed unit is for use in addition to a crank wheel for sequential on MS1/2/3 or any other EMS that needs it. It works very well, and is nice and small.
The current single tooth distributor speed unit is for use in addition to a crank wheel for sequential on MS1/2/3 or any other EMS that needs it. It works very well, and is nice and small.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Camo
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:55 pm
Re: Mini Cam Sync
Thanks for such a quick response. I agree they look nice and compact and that is why I went with Mario's setup. I bought one last year and I'm just waiting for these to be completed.
I have MS3 and as mentioned crank angle sensor. So in my case, I can use either the V1 or the V2 when completed. Good stuff and thanks for your help.
Kev
I have MS3 and as mentioned crank angle sensor. So in my case, I can use either the V1 or the V2 when completed. Good stuff and thanks for your help.
Kev
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Re: Mini Cam Sync
Somewhere along the line I lost emailed updates to this thread but its good to see this post. I'm going into an interesting project pretty soon and it'd be nice to see the second run come out around the same time period that I finish it.MarioVelotta wrote:Got the couple of changes made to the files with some upgrades and sent them off. I know the shop has some other big projects going right now, I don't know if they will be worked in between operations or if he is finishing the other things first.
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4006
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: Mini Cam Sync
I have the first of the new version installed as of about 12 hours ago, the car fully synced up within a couple turns of the engine and fired right up. This sensor replaced my open topped Vanagon distributor that I have run as my sync for a couple of years. Not the prettiest of engines. But it tends to do the job for which it was intended. Thanks Mario!
![Image](http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy176/chipbirks/60%20bug/20140702_130823_zps8be5e5fb.jpg)
![Image](http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy176/chipbirks/60%20bug/20140702_130823_zps8be5e5fb.jpg)
- Camo
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- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:55 pm
Re: Mini Cam Sync
Excellent stuff Chip. When you say the car fully synced up within a couple turns, do you need to position the cam sync in a particular spot like a distributor so the injector timing is spot on. I guess that the pickup inside needs to be timed or very close to the sweet spot so fuel is injected at the right time.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge, I'm new to EFI and just starting to fit my engine up with MS3x and will also be going full sequential fuel and ignition.
Good to see that Mario has started sending out the orders, I am looking forward to fitting my new engine up with one.
Cheers, Kev
Sorry for my lack of knowledge, I'm new to EFI and just starting to fit my engine up with MS3x and will also be going full sequential fuel and ignition.
Good to see that Mario has started sending out the orders, I am looking forward to fitting my new engine up with one.
Cheers, Kev
- Chip Birks
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- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: Mini Cam Sync
As far as positioning goes, i just dropped it in and went. I may still dial it a little better in the future. I think i've heard that ms doesn't really care where the cam signal is, as long as it doesn't hit at the same time as the missing tooth signal on the crank. I guess that can confuse the computer a little. i am no expert here though.