New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

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luftvagon
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by luftvagon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:52 pm

New ignition map, based on pile drivers map
Image
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

luftvagon
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by luftvagon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:57 pm

Slight adjustments, to see if it fixes the ping on de/accel.

Image

AFR to match:

Image
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI

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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:43 pm

luftvagon wrote:Slight adjustments, to see if it fixes the ping on de/accel.

Image

AFR to match:

Image

Might try cranking on the MAP lag as an experiment, set to say ~30.
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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:45 am

Rikard wrote:
My ignition map is actually pretty conservative IMHO, the only thing remotely weird about my setup is the 2L heads on a 1.8.
Is that a conservative ignition map? :shock: If so, I don't know what to call mine :wink:
Do you run it really lean below 83kpa?

What is your idle advance?

Cheers

/rikard
I run 19:1 >2600 RPM and =<83kpa.
Used to run 22:1 but the current WB setup stops at 20:1, so I cannot set 22:1 as a target anymore.
(if your VE table and dead time etc are right, whatever you target will be dead nuts on)
I ran another ~5 degrees advance @22:1.
Does wonders for CHT at cruise in 100++ degree weather.
Overcooling is an issue under ~70F.

My idle advance is variable to maintain RPM, but ~10 BTDC.
It is also subject to the cold advance, which ranges from +10 to -5, I use the full range, it is always active. like my WUE.

Luftvagon: Your best lean idle results were at 15.3:1?
Remember--- for best results, only the engine gets to vote as to what it likes.
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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:11 am

Note: (putting here for lack of a better place to put it)

Noise filters:

I'm back to the 6/1 setup as the serp belt pulley on the crank for the AC took the wheels place, and I relocated the hall sensor back to the flywheel area sensor holder I made up.

This was not due to any fault of Marios bracket or wheel: will be used another day.

Using the provided Hall, had to jack pretty hard with the noise filter settings, sensor again needed to be <1/8" from FW, and the noise filter setup that worked was a bit different than what I used in the past, but seems to work flawlessly.

Basically the global filter is on (3) , the noise filters are OFF, and the tach period rejection + interrupt masking are ON., .3ms, 6% (I have an "extra" hole adjacent to the "proper" hole some sensors can pick up... The noise filter and using the correct trigger slope combination makes it invisible.
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samcat
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by samcat » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:02 pm

Seen these in Mario's shop, and am interested in going down this route (with EFI to follow).. But how would this setup work on an upright converted T4 in a bug, using the DTM.

Thanks,
Sam

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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:39 am

samcat wrote:Seen these in Mario's shop, and am interested in going down this route (with EFI to follow).. But how would this setup work on an upright converted T4 in a bug, using the DTM.

Thanks,
Sam
Seamlessly.
Mario has a very nice T4 crank trigger setup, should go behind most aluminum pulleys, might need a flat spot machined depending on pulley design, he may have other pulley options as well.

When he gets his "distributor wheel" version going (single missing tooth wheel, I'm using a 36-2 in a hacked 009, long story) you won't need the crank trigger to go sequential, it will be a drop-in and go. Will work w/MS2E or MS3.
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samcat
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by samcat » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:12 am

Piledriver wrote:When he gets his "distributor wheel" version going (single missing tooth wheel, I'm using a 36-2 in a hacked 009, long story) you won't need the crank trigger to go sequential, it will be a drop-in and go. Will work w/MS2E or MS3.
I saw that, very very interesting! Also bumped into the thread last night where you were building that up and it looks good.. Right up my street!

Any ETA for the "distributor wheel" version?
To get spark only with the option of fuel in the future what would I need?

Got the following in my cart so far, but not really sure if its right..

Type 4 Crank Trigger Kit (60-2 / Extra Machining Required)
Mini Cam Sync V1.2
LS2 Dual Coil Package with Raw Connector W/ Package

MS3-Pro w/ 2 8' harnesses


I want the best I can do, if I am going to the trouble of fitting proper crank triggered ignition I want it to be the best/most accurate/most tunable it can be...

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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:08 pm

I haven't seen the 60-2 wheel T4 setup, I tested the 36-1 wheel version for stock cooling.
The 36-1 wheel is reasonably small to fit behind a std size conversion pulley with a flat backside.

The mini cam sync is a very nice dual ball bearing supported piece.

You would have to ask Mario as to the way to go, he may have ready to roll conversion pulleys.
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samcat
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by samcat » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:03 pm

Okay, looking to start with spark only... Will move to full EFI later once I have got my head around spark only.

Will a TPS sensor be needed for spark? Guessing not.. but want to be sure.
Reason I ask is fitting a TPS sensor to my existing IDFs looks a bit of a pain, and when I go full efi the TB(s) will have a TPS.. Dont want to go through the pain if its not needed!

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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by MarioVelotta » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:18 pm

samcat wrote:Okay, looking to start with spark only... Will move to full EFI later once I have got my head around spark only.

Will a TPS sensor be needed for spark? Guessing not.. but want to be sure.
Reason I ask is fitting a TPS sensor to my existing IDFs looks a bit of a pain, and when I go full efi the TB(s) will have a TPS.. Dont want to go through the pain if its not needed!
TPS isn't required for ignition, it's helpful so you are not only looking at the manifold vacuum to gauge engine load but not required.

For ignition you can get away with just a crank trigger, the manifold reference and your ignition coil or coils. That is enough info for the ECU to move the cursor around the ignition map :)
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Piledriver
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:38 am

You probably want to use the idle timing and correction tables rather than putting it in the main map, much smoother and a kick in the pants when the map timing kicks in when you tip in, set right its great for drivability, and you can set it to taste.

To trigger all the idle control goodness on a MS3 and perhaps use an IAC, a TPS or at least a (vanagon) stock-like idle switch is probably required.
I'm currently using a 3wire IAC off the Vanagon using the idle and VVT outputs. works well, much better than the 2 wire version ever did.

OTOH I just used a CIS warm up air valve for years. (has a heater and a bimetal strip, just feed it coil power)

The 2 or 3 wire VDO IAC makes a gentle buzz you can just hear with the key on and engine not running @99Hz. (factory spec was ~same)
Hardest part of using it is that it wants a 3/4"/19mm ID hose for feed air, the breather plumbing I have it run off of can't feed it in cold weather on startup/cold idle, looking to make an elegant large bore plumbing setup.
Of course if you have it on a Vanagon with the ~original plumbing it just fits.

You might consider using a MAF sensor later on and keeping all the factory air cleaner etc, just adapt it for the MAF.
The MS3 (and IIRC MS2E) MAF code is now completely rewritten and allegedly works quite well now.
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samcat
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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by samcat » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:34 am

Thanks all.

Doing uni work today, tomorrow all being well I will be working on the car.. Gotta wire up my LM-2. This will give me a chance to start gentle pondering of best way to proceed.

Currently engine bay looks like:

Image

(with the exception of the linkage, that now a cable based solution)

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Re: New Type 4 Trigger Wheel

Post by Clonebug » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:14 pm

Nice clean engine compartment SamCat.......looks nice.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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