Ignition only table?

[andy198712]

Really cool write up. I dig this! I was initially going to do this, but instead of mj just using strait up Megasquirt. I ended up doing the fuel to.
After you drive it for a while, I'm interested to know your MPG.

If you have an Android phone I know they have an app called FuelLog its great!

cheers

i'm using MS1 EXTRA 2.2 for this, this is an experiment and learning curve for me so i dont just fly in blind when i start up my 2110 EFI i'm building

i used to have an app like that, but i'm keeping track on a notepad in the car, and will continue to from now on i think.

[andy198712]

Don't bet on a MPG drop unless you bet on the horses too.
It doesn't always follow as you would think, as AFR and required timing are cojoined at the neck.
Sometimes it will get better MPG if it better matches the ignition map. (and it isn't simply pig rich)

You really need a WBO2 and a EGT setup to make informed decisions when playing with low MAP>cruise advance.
(and even then you have to play)

Lately I've given up playing with the AFR table and letting VEAL and MLV endlessly tweak the numbers, changes have essentially been in the noise.

I've been targeting 1200-1250F EGT at any significant load, and tweaking the timing to make it happen.
(I also cruise at 17.5:1 or so... so it needs far more timing than at stoich)

Is that the correct way? I don't know, but this engine apparently likes it.
...of course it liked 27 degrees too much timing everywhere, and only slightly pinged occasionally at low RPM when really hot.

My table currently looks... scary.

Heads have never run cooler, and EGT is remarkably steady and anything above ~45 KPA and ~2K, below that there doesn't seem to be enough heat to work the TC I'm running reliably.

I added a ton of timing in the 17.5:1 target zone, which is most of my map >2400 RPM and <80 KPa
(idle is 45-50 KPa, web 73 cam)

62 KPA is 70 MPH cruise @~3650 RPM, 52 degrees of timing, CHT (good temp compensated meter) was ~320. MAT (ambient in my case) was reading 104 F (40C) ~level ground on 45 minute drive home. EGT 1200.(down from 1350) CHT dropped ~15F on drive after 12 degree tweak.

I need to setup a different calibration for the JAW, it can read a much wider range on the lean side than a LC-1 can.

I'm hesitant to post up in case someone without instrumentation and a different motor setup tries it.

thanks buddy, thats very interesting, and i gather that what the engine should need, and what it actually does are two differant things!

like you say i really need some gauges to get this dialled in right but short of a CHT gauge i might save the good stuff for my EFI build like a wideband (heard mixed reviews on the LC1) and EGT

go on, post it up, were all friends here, just state not to try it

[andy198712]

well from my last couple commutes of about 30 mins the oil temp on the dip stick has dropped right down!! some times on arrival the dipstick has just been warm! not even hot. huge change!!

i know i really need some gauges
tempted by this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150861521073? ... 1423.l2648

[Piledriver]

You need to ask if the meter is temperature compensated.
(Unless it is always ~70F in your cabin)

Would look good in a center console or such.

You should be able to get a hand held meter for the toolbox for less, if you only plan on using it for tuning.
(I don't monitor mine unless I fiddle with the setup, I have a very good idea how my CHT and MS logged CLT correlate after many miles. My DVM has a K type TC plug, and is temp compensated)

I actually have a TC amp in my MS2 setup, but there is a ground loop, so it only works for EGT or oil temp with electrically insulated sensors---Hard to do for under the plug sensors.

[Steve Arndt]

You need to ask if the meter is temperature compensated.
(Unless it is always ~70F in your cabin)

Pile, dont' forget the VDO has a TC lead of 12 inches. The cold junction is 12 inches from the hot junction. This places it in the hot engine compartment, not the cabin. This further skews the readings.

[Piledriver]

You need to ask if the meter is temperature compensated.
(Unless it is always ~70F in your cabin)

Pile, dont' forget the VDO has a TC lead of 12 inches. The cold junction is 12 inches from the hot junction. This places it in the hot engine compartment, not the cabin. This further skews the readings.

Then there is the "2 beers at lunch" variable I usually assume VDO products are plagued by.

[Piledriver]

The ignition table won't do you much good without this level of mixture control...
This has been tweaked some to give me a 1200-1250F EGT at any load I can get a consistent EGT reading at, is a work in progress.

All std disclaimers apply, if you don't have a 1.8L T4 with 49cc chamber 2L heads, .055" deck and the same fuel/intake/exhaust/fuel/ignition/cooling system etc, all bets are OFF. It could turn your engine into a grapefruit or something.

Note MS multi table function can cascade the tables automatically either vertically or horizontally, allowing really stupid resolution. (in other words, if i added a turbo, I could create a boosted map for >100 KPA, there is one row or column lost to overlap, it essentially creates one (effective) table from the two or 3 being cascaded. VEAL can tune them all.)
AFR table:

AFR1-7292013.jpeg

VE1:

VE1-7292012.jpeg

Ignition advance:

Advance1-7292014.jpeg

[panel]

I see ignition tables tweaked into the decimal points sometimes. How are you determining that last increment? Where someone would have 28 but you have 28.4 etc.

Also:

Note MS multi table function can cascade the tables automatically either vertically or horizontally, allowing really stupid resolution. (in other words, if i added a turbo, I could create a boosted map for >100 KPA, there is one row or column lost to overlap, it essentially creates one (effective) table from the two or 3 being cascaded. VEAL can tune them all.)

You're saying that you can have your AFR table,Ignition table and your VE table all set at different RPM/MAP values?

[Piledriver]

I see ignition tables tweaked into the decimal points sometimes. How are you determining that last increment? Where someone would have 28 but you have 28.4 etc.

It's no great insight, just software interpolation. (IIRC it takes the axis entries % spread into account to keep the slope linear)
That's mostly from manual smoothing in TS, drag select an area and hit the magic wand, it will scale from the 4 corners or ends of the selected area on one row/column.
When you use the up or down keys/buttons while interactively tuning a cell or block it increments in tenths as well, so it's a combination of both.

Also:

Note MS multi table function can cascade the tables automatically either vertically or horizontally, allowing really stupid resolution. (in other words, if i added a turbo, I could create a boosted map for >100 KPA, there is one row or column lost to overlap, it essentially creates one (effective) table from the two or 3 being cascaded. VEAL can tune them all.)

You're saying that you can have your AFR table,Ignition table and your VE table all set at different RPM/MAP values?

That was not the main point I was trying to make... I was lamely trying to explain cascaded tables. (not just for AFR)

Yes, firmware interpolates smoothly within the tables, a certain amount of that is inherent as the VE tables are each 16x16 and the AFR and ignition tables are 12x12.
(VEAL only deals with AFR, I meant to say VEAL can work with the cascaded AFR tables)

If you don't care for that , you can set AFR to 12x12 as well and make all your bins match perfectly, but I haven't heard of or seen any issues with the interpolation.
EDIT---It's still going to interpolate between cells.

[andy198712]

Just filled up, 37.7mpg

[Piledriver]

Rockin! (Imperial gallons?)
Change the jetting yet?

I'm still trying to get over 30MPG (US) consistently.
(lead foot not helping)
I can get >35MPG on a long highway trip, but 30+ on my commute seems a hard target.

The EGT referenced timing tweaks do seem to be helping CHT noticeably.
It was 105 today.

[volksbugly]

almost 38 mpg! thats awesome! This is going to be interesting, after I get mine all running and and can get some numbers I'll let you know what MPG I get.
I went with dual IDFs, I plan to run it lean to get good mpg. I hope I can get 38mpg.

[andy198712]

Rockin! (Imperial gallons?)
Change the jetting yet?

I'm still trying to get over 30MPG (US) consistently.
(lead foot not helping)
I can get >35MPG on a long highway trip, but 30+ on my commute seems a hard target.

The EGT referenced timing tweaks do seem to be helping CHT noticeably.
It was 105 today.

cheers yep imperial uk gallons.

yh about 100 miles ago i switched from a 112 main to a 120 and its so much cooler on the dip stick!!massive change, will check the plugs soon and see how it looks, maybe go in-between if they do that size if it needs be, i have noticed a slight hesitation when i get back on the throttle when its warm so may be tad rich, but i will have to see where on my ignition map its happening and see what i can do about it.
your ignition map isnt as bad as you made out, maybe i expected too much lol
with the EGT is the idea to get that as cool as poss or...? seems a better idea then CHT or no?

lets not forget this is a small 1200 engine here when comparing mpg

[andy198712]

almost 38 mpg! thats awesome! This is going to be interesting, after I get mine all running and and can get some numbers I'll let you know what MPG I get.
I went with dual IDFs, I plan to run it lean to get good mpg. I hope I can get 38mpg.

what size engine are you up to now? be good to compare, i'm keen to try my next full tank with the bigger main jet to see if leaner gives worst mpg or better....

i guess part of it is down to my driving, but i try not to think about it while driving and then just drive how i normally do!


i'm finding that from cold it will start on the button, no throttle at all, but when hot it needs alot of throttle to get it to catch, fine once you know the knack,

but what do you think could be causing this? more advance at idle needed?

the choke is disconected

it runs alot better from cold now i upped the main jet.

tempted by this for my 2110 engine with drysump pump i'm building, but its a lot of money to drop on it! but so neat!
http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php? ... 507&page=1

look at the instructions to see it better.

but then i'd need there top pulley kit with tentsioner which is another £180 odd! or some other type of serp top pulley system

[panel]

http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php? ... 507&page=1

To complicated

Get a Dub Shop one from Mario