type4 2L 914 timing

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:08 pm

I have a Squareback at my hour right now with a type 4 914 2L in it. I have only touched a couple of type 4 engines and I don't know where to start with the timing.

It seems the type 4 likes less total timing than the type 1. Initial timing seems to be about the same.

Initial around 12 total about 28. What do they like to be all in by? Thanks everyone!

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:26 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:I have a Squareback at my hour right now with a type 4 914 2L in it. I have only touched a couple of type 4 engines and I don't know where to start with the timing.

It seems the type 4 likes less total timing than the type 1. Initial timing seems to be about the same.

Initial around 12 total about 28. What do they like to be all in by? Thanks everyone!

If built ~stock. the factory spec max mechanical advance was 27 BTDC, the most It will probably need is 30 total, but watch CHT, those heads like to crack. Run vac advance or programmable if possible, the air seal is critical of course.
All in by 3200-3500.

If running MS, the min MAP timing line should be ~35 at 2000>>50 at 3500, 12btdc at idle and I use the idle timing feature to hold 1K idle +/- 50 RPM. Original (or bus) plenum setup may show large MAP peaks at a couple points, so WOT MAP may not make a nice straight line across the table, timing and AFR target will need to be tweaked to adapt.

If built with a tighter deck it may like <27 BTDC. (sans head gaskets, ~.030")
If the head builder added a step cut, may want more... Really only one way to find out... CHT will "take off" under load faster with too much timing, they are usually pretty knock resistant, it will get way too hot before it pings unless dead lean.

It may tolerate//like quite a bit more initial if you feel like tweaking the stops on the distributor.
The more cam it has, the more initial it will probably like.

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:31 pm

Thanks Pile, it has a full MS installed and running EDIS

It doesn't have a CHT or EGT gauge so that is why I am asking instead of just trying it. I want to play it safe.

I should get an extra set of gauges for this reason I guess

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:40 pm

Added some ~MS (or programmable FI) specific info as you posted, I kinda figured...

I would STRONGLY advise a CHT (at least) for tuning.

NGK makes a 14mm triple plug that is a 5/8", app BMW twin (oilhead?) 6 range. (same as Bosch 7 range) works great and lasts, easy to do CHT with them. (don't recall the #, but google will provide)

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:45 pm

Sweet

It is a stock motor. He has some stock yellow top injectors on it. I can't remember what they where from but the plugs for them suck

I had to fix on of them.

I'll get some pics up maybe later today!

Thanks again!

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:50 pm

IIRC the factory 2L injectors were green tops... lowZ.

IIRC Injectors out of a later Volvo turbo are a good slightly more modern ~direct swap.

I'm not running any of the above (Yammy R1 pico injectors here) , so I can't advise reqfuel.

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:06 pm

i have it all running now, sounds pretty crisp. Need to do some test driving. Yesterday I found the broken injector wire that stopped tuning time short. Almost didn't make it back home on 3 cylinders. The plugs that where used are lame but I was easily able to retrofit a pin to replace it with so that was a bonus!

So are you saying in the over run areas of the map 30kpa I should put in about 35 degrees at 2000 rpm and 50 degrees at 3500 rpms? And then as vacuum goes away move it toward 27-30 degrees at cruise?

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:22 pm

Here is what the car came with for timing, lol

supaninja · Post by **supaninja** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:56 pm

that timing map is a bit off. Add lots of timing in the cruise region and some up top too.

MarioVelotta · Post by **MarioVelotta** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:06 pm

I will retune and start with this map

supaninja · Post by **supaninja** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:31 pm

you can run a lot more in the cruise KPa regions. Here is my current one.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:59 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:i have it all running now, sounds pretty crisp. Need to do some test driving. Yesterday I found the broken injector wire that stopped tuning time short. Almost didn't make it back home on 3 cylinders. The plugs that where used are lame but I was easily able to retrofit a pin to replace it with so that was a bonus!

So are you saying in the over run areas of the map 30kpa I should put in about 35 degrees at 2000 rpm and 50 degrees at 3500 rpms? And then as vacuum goes away move it toward 27-30 degrees at cruise?

Yep, pretty much. 12-18 initial, 27-30 at WOT max KPA line @~3500 , which may or may NOT be 100 KPA... might be much more, or less...

I have a reasonable msq posted in my 6/1 thread, would be a good starting point, bit too much timing due to step cut heads/.055" deck.

Log it, watch WOT MAP and see where the "dot" goes... that's your "mechanical" advance and AFR line.
Be aware it may not be remotely a straight line, mine dips from 112 to 85 KPA between 3900 and 4900, then back to 100 at 5400.
Shift the maps to suit from that line.

I think it's mostly some sort of resonance in the long MAP sample line in my case, next one will be remote sensor on plenum or at TBs.
I'm not buying that my setup with a Web73 gets 112+% VE anywhere.

panel · Post by **panel** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:23 pm

I started this thread awhile ago. It might help?

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 3&t=131858

supaninja · Post by **supaninja** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:06 pm

Wow you guys are all so scurred of timing

I discussed my setup with a really good local tuner, in his spare time he reads NASA reports on detention and preignition. He recommended what I'm running. Also you guys want to run more timing in the cruise region of your map, we're not using 009's here might as well improve your fuel economy and throttle response

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:42 pm

Who U callin skerred, buckwheat?

I have tried >70 BTDC at low map.. didn't even ping. Didn't help either.
When Ninja drove my car it was running 27 degrees extra timing everywhere...
(new fan//wrong timing mark on initial setup)
It had a little very light "rattle" intermittently at light throttle/low RPM.
Ran pretty good for what it is. Didn't even run hot, oddly.

Don't be afraid of advance under vacuum.

On ACVWs the CHT will probably limit what you can run, rather than knock.
(note--- if your setup is all "right" it will run COOLER at the correct timing)

Unfortunately I have yet to figure out "the procedure" for getting there directly.

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type4 2L 914 timing

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