best handling platform/rally

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bikesndbugs
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best handling platform/rally

Post by bikesndbugs » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:38 am

the standard answer is super beetle because of the strut front end and even for rally.
but why not a 70 standard with ball joint front end it would be stronger at least in a rally application
the super beetle has the plus of better weight distribution and the capability with Porsche.
but why not a type 3?
a squareback would be sick
or lets say you went super hardcore and went modern coil overs all around i would assume they would all be rather even and i like front trailing arms.
of course irs and all irs arms can be swapped for Porsche 944 arms right?
i know front arms like to bend but that can be reinforced
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THX1138
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by THX1138 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:54 pm

There is a guy who does VERY well with a BJ/IRS '70 bug in rally in the states. I think a well made double A-arm conversion on a standard bug would be superior to a super front end personally, but that obviously requires a lot of fabrication and skills/knowledge. There are some production a-arm kits but I don't know much about them and they are probably pricey.
'70 Beetle and '56 semaphore oval

Bruce.m
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Bruce.m » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:10 pm

Straight cut/paste from an email I received last week:
Bob Beales is competing in the Rally GB Wales this weekend. He won his class last year. Admittedly he was the only one in his pre 1960 class. He was interviewed before the start, and it went as follows;

Interviewer: Hi Bob, that is a beautiful car you have there, but surely it handles like a pig?
Bob: Oh, I wouldn’t know, I’ve never driven a pig before.
Interviewer: silence.........

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best handling platform/rally

Post by Bruce.m » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:11 pm

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Jadewombat
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Jadewombat » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:21 pm

Super beetle vs. standard. Hmmm, depends upon the course but more often than not a super handles better.

Type 3 vs. standard bug. The type 3s tend to be stronger. I'm not quite sure how much suspension travel they have though. Type 3s have been rallied a long time a quick search will show. My favorite:

http://bringatrailer.com/2014/12/03/baj ... -fastback/

From my own experience pit crewing for a Mitsu. Galant VR4 team back in 2001, you have to consider how serviceable the vehicle is in rallying. We had 20-45 minutes to service the car depending upon the event. If you had a major front end problem, a super beetles components would be easier to change out than a whole beam in a short amount of time.

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FJCamper
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by FJCamper » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:13 pm

Hi Jadewombat,

Super Bug's have a more fragile front suspension than a standard Bug.

Theoretically a Super Bug should handle better, but we don't see that in the real world as a given. Those beam axle 356's get around the track awfully fast. We can't compare the 911 lap times to the 356 because of the different engines.

I also think my crew could swap out an assembled beam axle as opposed to trying to deal with a Super with a bent front tub and dislocated steering box. If you've done no more than bend a control arm, or swaybar, you're good. But a real hard hit that folds a strut inwards or backwards and you're out.

As far as Type 3's, I have so little experience with them I can't render an opinion.

FJC

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bikesndbugs
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by bikesndbugs » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:29 pm

this is just all random shower thoughts of mine and a plan for a dream street/rally car. Probably would never actually rallied or raced maybe a random track day or something along the lines of that. It for sure wouldn't happen soon.
Type 3 appeals to me because of the looks i love the look of a notch and a squareback
Imo a squareback that handled with a turbo subaru motor and stock ride height or higher
the bug id rather it be a standard due to the strength of the beam and super tend to rather ugly imo
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Jadewombat
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Jadewombat » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:32 pm

I only did rallycross once in my '73 super about four years ago, but from what I saw and experienced it really beats up the car. That course I ran was mild ruts, deep gravel, and hard packed dirt--all in the same course. Rallycross is an excellent place to start. Other people's care were not so fortunate that day. A new Ford Focus (rental) ripped the fender liners off and blew all four shocks, an Audi lost a fog lamp embedded in the bumper and also lost a fender liner, a guy driving a Crown Vic destroyed his radiator...

It was a blast though and very easy to get in a rhythm with the car and do side-steer as needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-x496IN92Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POcmn93MQgs

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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Piledriver » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:02 am

If you are driving in dirt/gravel, usable HP, the proper shock/spring setup, and real rally tires made for the conditions, in good shape probably matter infinitely more than even the most radical variations in design.

A T3 is very sturdy, but front end parts are rare-ish to hens teeth, and not to be found in the middle of nowhere.
Its also heavier than a bug, but you do have a ton of room....

If I was running in the dirt, it would be a std. T1 with as much as can be learned from the off-road guys about reinforcing stuff, class 11 ++.

Some youtube vids I have seen of rallycross are brutal, don't take any car you even remotely like... disposables only. Probably depends on class/venue.(search for "family rallycross"?)

On pavement or road rally, i'd lean towards the super, but again, its heavier than a std T1, and less likely to tolerate a curb or pothole, a properly set up std can ~navigate bomb craters at speed.

Given that finishing is usually a prerequisite to winning, the more bulletproof the better.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Jadewombat
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Jadewombat » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:04 pm

Just to clarify, SCCA rallycross is 1 car on the course at a time and dirt cheap to run in and get going with a fixed budget (~$30/day). Pro rallycross like Ken Block, etc. is European-style multiple cars at a time on the course and a lot of contact (intended or unintended).

Like Pile said, nothing beats real rally tires, but snow or light-truck tires have been used as a cheap alternative.

From here on STF:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=146053&p=1205278&h ... s#p1205278
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=143632&hilit=rallycross
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=142559&hilit=rallycross

My old super in my 1 attempt (I did pretty well that day though), :lol:

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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by bikesndbugs » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:51 pm

ok sweet thanks for the info
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petew
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by petew » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:36 pm

1. buy this book and read it cover to cover...

https://www.amazon.com/Baja-Bugs-Buggie ... 0895861860

Half the tips apply to a regular racecar anyhow.

Then this site...

http://www.rallybugs.com/

2. how serious are you? Coz if you're going to cage the car properly, all the weaknesses of the strut front end disappear with plating and bar work.

3. struts are in themselves a compromise at a theoretical level. However, in practice, the WRC and similar has done so much work making them great you'd be silly not to consider them properly. Half the golf front end bolts in. All the datsuns, escorts and the like all use struts too. It also makes brake upgrades a lot easier.

4. I'd love to rally a type 3 too, except... a WRX motor will be a boat anchor in the back of the car... and they're very heavy to start with... they're hard to get parts for... and class rules likely will not allow a different engine + turbo. The best thing to rally is a something common and light, think starlet, escort, corolla, mini, 510, etc, etc.

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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by petew » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:58 pm

P.s. fit a subaru 5 speed trans though. Cheap LSDs. ;)

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bikesndbugs
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by bikesndbugs » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:41 pm

seriousness not at all just want it for use and ability to be good all around. maybe autocross or rally-cross just for some weekend fun here and there

nearly memorized that offroad book as im currently building a baja bug
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Re: best handling platform/rally

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Remember, when you dual purpose a toy then you are usually going to have to compromise on the perfect builds for each of the multiple uses.

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