stock or wider front track?

[uglydog56]

I picked up a 68 to build a canyon carver out of. Converting the rear to irs, the front to double a-arms. I'm going to run 225/50-15's on 8's on the rear, 205/50-15's on 7's on the front. I believe this means I have to run wider fenders on the rear, going to go with 2" wider. I have been planning around stock fender width in front. Would you just widen the rear and leave the front at stock width, or widen the front to match and push the front track out to match? I haven't been around a bug with widened fenders, and would welcome opinions from both an aesthetic and technical point of view.

[Chip Birks]

Personally I don't love wide fendered bugs, front or rear. But that's just me. I'd way rather see the work done to narrow suspension to fit the original lines of the car. I like bugs that go straight quickly, I'm not big on carving, thus my bias.

[Piledriver]

With drop spindles, the right offset wheels and a bit of minor clearancing work out back you can get quite a bit of tire under stock fenders with a bit of fender roll.
Due to the weight bias you don't need more than 205s on 6" wide wheels up front for it to turn in well..

[uglydog56]

Chip, how much/what surgery does it take to get a 225 under a stock rear fender?

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Look up "scrub Radius" (for some reason I can't copy and post on this) as it might be something you want to add to the mix also. All part of the alignment process.

[uglydog56]

Foggy, I've got the suspension layout covered. Also, I have more scrub radius than I want, but you play the cards you're dealt.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

There are some advantages to positive, negative or neutral scrub radiuses (http://www.beissbarth.com/bbcms/Technol ... Radius.htm).

Sorry about these the posts .

Lee

[Chip Birks]

Chip, how much/what surgery does it take to get a 225 under a stock rear fender?

I know of people doing it currently without narrowing, just carefully planned wheel offsets and such. I have a 215/65/15 in the rear of mine. I run 6 inch ERCO wheels, not sure on the offsets though. I have run 3 different sets of brakes with these wheels and tires. 67 drums with short axles probably provided the best fit. 63 drums with short axles destroyed the inside of my slicks by rubbing on the snubber stop and possibly the spring plate retainer plate, lots of room to the fender though. Now I have Airkewld discs on the rear and those push the tire closer to the fender, leaving space on the inside. I am using OEM fenders with no mods. The car is lowered a bit too. Swing axle tips the top of the tire in when the rear comes down. That's helping with fender clearance too.

Shag Leon has a big tire on the back of his 55. Might be worth friending him on Facebook and seeking some advice. He's running a Porsche deep 6 Fuch, using the same brakes I have, but Porsche pattern.

[Piledriver]

If you flip the bolts in the spring plate and trim the bumpstop down it helps a lot.

I'm running a T3, so I can't be too much help, but the methodology is the same.
I managed to get 245/50 -16 on ET52.3 8" Fuchs 944 manhole covers under stock fenders, mostly
(The inner fender had to be tubbed a bit,, not an issue on a T1)
The suspension setup was same as bug, its made a little different from formed sheetmetal and has a double shear upper mount, but the geometry and trailing arms are the same.

That setup with 15mm spacers gave me 10mm from the heads of the spring plate bolts.

[Bruce2]

...... to run 225/50-15's on 8's on the rear, 205/50-15's on 7's on the front. .

I have fitted exactly that setup on my Beetle.
The first problem with the rear tire you want to use is limited availability. I first used them in the early 90s when you had several makers. By about 10-12 years ago the choices were so limited I gave up on that size. The second problem with that size is that it is too short for proper gearing for freeway use. To compensate, I built my gearbox with a 3.88 R&P and the Bus extra tall .82 fourth. It was still too short, and the gap between 3rd and 4th was annoying. A 225/55 would have worked, but only one limited production car ever had that tire so only Michelin made it.
Prior to using this combo, I had wider fenders on a previous car. The wider rear track just made the inside right hit curbs on corners. If you keep the tire inside the stock fender, that problem doesn't exist.
To fit it under the stock fender, you have to grind away part of the rear body mount and at least ½" of the snubber mount. When you're looking for parts, only consider 71 and later TAs and single spring plates. The early doubles are wider and rob valuable tire room.
This all assumes you will be able to pick your offeset, which is unlikely. I had my wheels before I started the project, so I narrowed the TAs to fit them and the brakes I wanted to use. The forward lower bolt from the TA to spring plate had to go, so I countersunk the hole in the TA and used a flat head bolt. IIRC, I had 3mm of clearance there.
And, I rolled the inner lip of the fender up more.
As mentioned above, the shortness of that tire is why I now have taller 215/60/15s. It is much easier to gear properly using stock parts. Currently I am using a 4.12R&P with the same Bus .82. The huge gap between that and 3rd was cured by the 5 speed. Now, even that tire is limited availability. You can only get them as an all-season tire.

[Piledriver]

There are more choices at 16-17" rims.
(example)
Everybody with 944s and 928s whines there are no 245-45-16s but they just are limited by looking for certain models of bubblegum AX tires, non-velcro performance summer and all season performance tires are widely available in that size and thereabouts from Cooper, Sumitomo, Nitto etc.

If you are racing, its a problem finding certain models of racing tires in some sizes.

If you are flexible with wheel choices/offset it makes it easier.
If you are in love with a certain set of wheels, you have to adapt to work around that choice..

[uglydog56]

Bruce, the top end issue is being resolved by using a 901 transmission. This will drop highway rpms by 500 compared to my 65, with its stock 40hp trans and 165's on rear. 3600ish @ 70 for 40hp, 3100ish for 901 with 225s. This should be low enough to screw with people who think their cars are fast, but high enough to keep from overheating on the freeway.

With respect to tire selection, I'm only running sticky gumball tires on this thing, presumably toyo r888's or equivalent. This car is only a sunny day, dry pavement car. I can always drive my 65 which has good heat and averages 31mpg when it's unpleasant outside. Pile, I can't (or am unwilling to, at any rate) go to a taller diameter rim, because I'm already struggling geometry-wise to keep the front upper control arm under the gas tank. I would have to go to a drop spindle, or fabricate my own uprights, to use 16's or 17's which I am not up for yet. Taller wheels are also heavier than the 15's, and I would like to keep this thing nimble and compliant.

I am using early 944 front spindles, which require a rather deep offset. In order to get enough offset to keep my scrub radius reasonable and my kingpin angle sane, It looks like custom offset wheels are going to be required. 5x130 bolt pattern has like no wheel selection whatsoever, especially in 15's. I could probably use replica fuchs and everything would work decently, but even with et23.3 I'm left with 2.6" of scrub. Too much. I kind of wish I hadn't decided on 944 spindles, but I've got them, and wanted all the brakes to match. So my plan wrt wheels is pickup 4 944 spacesaver spares, send them to this dude in Michigan who can widen them to 7's and 8's, and set the fronts to et63.5 and the rears to whatever I figure out it has to be. They will end up looking pretty much like factory bug wheels, and won't cost 500-1000$ per wheel like true custom wheels. I won't be winning any best of show prizes though, to be sure.

Unfortunately, Bruce, the irs rear setup I picked up would of course be early double spring plate. The 68 (which is still sitting with swing arm trans in it) currently has adjustable spring plates on it. I'm strongly considering trimming those with a plasma cutter to bolt to the irs arms, and using the money I saved to buy stiffer rear torsion bars. With careful measuring for backspace, and a wooden baseball bat help rolll the fenders as needed, maybe I can keep it all under stock fenders.

[Piledriver]

Actually there is a relatively large selection of 5x130, from old 15" ET23 to ET65, but higher offsets are going to be 16-17-18", and unless you score some manhole covers or Boxster rims there is a huge Porsche tax, particularly on the ET23 Cookie Cutters etc. The tire choice at 17" is probably ~best, and boxster rims are common and can be had inexpensively..

The manhole covers are forged Fuchs, and are surprisingly light esp in 6" width. (ET 52.3) and can be had reasonably cheap. Early 944 turbos are ET53.3, late 944Ts and 928s were ET65, but IIRC the 6s are 52.3 only, they can be had in 6/7/8" widths. 6s and 7s should work well if you can get your desired tires in 16".

I'm running 1" spacers up front and they clear the fenders like stock with 205/55s.
The cookie cutters are magnesium, and much sought after.$$$ but can be had reasonably if you take your time.

Al lot of places can widen wheels on the inside, its too hard to get the cosmetics right on the outside.

[Bruce2]

... the irs rear setup I picked up would of course be early double spring plate. .

Don't waste your time. You need every mm you can get.

... currently has adjustable spring plates on it. .

Another no-go. The adjusting block is in the way of the tire.

Rant on adjustable spring plates:
Everyone fantasizes about including adjustable spring plates in their build. What actually happens is that they install them then they adjust them to where they want the car, then NEVER AGAIN! What's the point of making them adjustable if you never adjust them?

Use the stock spring plates, they're a lot lighter for better handling, better weight distribution, acceleration, etc.

[uglydog56]

Got me 4 of these:

http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74 ... /s-l64.jpg

If you squint, they look like factory bug wheels. I wonder if they'll take a bug hubcap? That would be pretty sleepery (sleepery: new word trademarked by me). With all the offset, they'll won't look wide at all.

Point taken, Bruce, will look for single spring plates. Probably going to retain the irs arms I have and modify a set of single spring plates to fit as necessary.