aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

For road racing, autocrossing, or just taking that curve in style. Oh yea, and stopping!
User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by 681tonburb » Fri May 20, 2016 2:52 am

I bought a hole set of brembos and rear arms off a 86 944 turbo sevral years ago to use. But never got around to having g vdub engineering make the front convertion parts . and it's like you said if I want to rebuild the calipers it will cost more then new wilwoods . I was hoping to see if the wilwoods would bolt to the 944 arms so that the caliper rebuild wouldn't be so bad and I could still have the internal e brake set up.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 20, 2016 4:53 am

I would be kinda surprised if someone didn't have the parts off the shelf, pretty common caliper conversion for VWs.

The cost may not prove high, the centric rebuild parts seem to work fine for a fraction of Porsche $$$

I have finally had a few minutes to get all the grunge off and measure things (now is my Friday, work nights), seems my ebay seller sold me fronts instead of rears, so its going to be 30x28x2 993 radial mounts out back and 36x40x2 late 944 Ts up front. The 944T pads are same F&R, same as 930/917, so already incoming.

As the offset is ~same as Wilwood it should be little>no harder.

The 914 will go all Wilwood.

Sometimes being a packrat pays off.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by 681tonburb » Fri May 20, 2016 5:04 am

Ya only one guy did the brembo convertion for the ball joint bugs and he doesn't do it anymore can't blaim him he probably makes a killing with the wilwood brakets . if your wilwoods can't bolt on the 944 arms you have then I'm probably stuck using the 944 brembo in rear and wilwood up front . For shocks I was like you not sure what to go with but I think now im going to just go coliover and no torsion bars.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 20, 2016 5:32 am

I would not ditch what you have just yet, and certainly not at a discount...

I scored my wilwood forged superlight internals (current production), used in ~perfect shape for $160/pair w/pads.
(ended up with a free third race damaged one from a seller that made an error, using that for mockups)

The Wilwood mounts are ~ identical to the Porsche 944 front Brembos save for bolt spacing, anyone actually making the former can make the later. You are limited to a 28mm rotor unless you break out the grinder.

MAKING a mount may prove trivial, I'll take a pass at it tomorrow with any luck, although I don't have any 28mm rotors, I can get some offset measurements, should be a good can it work sanity check.

Having said all that with a light `glass kit car with a VW motor out back, the 944T fronts are probably way too big by miles for proper brake balance, 2 sets of rears (30x28,mmx2) with an adjustable proportioning valve would likely be perfect.

Stuck with 24mm rotors F&R tho. (but that could be Boxster fronts(?) and 944 T rears)

I have a return/refund request in on the the 944T fronts, but it looks I can also just flip them and double my $.
Seller doesn't provide refunds, not sure how thats going to work out, I won't cut them in half, scored them for $160 as well.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by 681tonburb » Fri May 20, 2016 6:23 am

Since my calipers are from a 86 the fronts are only 38/36 so not as bad as the 87 up were not sure what the weight on the front will be like but I'm sure I may have to move stuff around to get a good weight distribution. I paid 500 for all 4 calipers and the aluminum arms no rotors with them so I have to get new ones .

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 20, 2016 4:47 pm

If you need a bolt on kit, Airkewled probably sells or can fab whatever you want given the $$$$.
If you cave ANY capacity to fab or have stuff fabbed locally and have a good ruler... Read on.

Mind, i only have t3 front spindles.(but same BJ spindle as late T1)

Tried a few setups (Porsche 944T/928S front, 996/Boxster S rear calipers on non-s fronts, wilwood superlight and dynalites...)

Given the "spacer under the rotor" option, almost anything is fittable with a workable adapter.
The main issue can be the steering arm/tie rod getting in the way.

Some of these calipers are ideally front mount, a plate that bolts to the face of the spindle can clear with very little under-the-rotor spacer. These are usually made to go on the face of the rotor and need turned down to fit inside.

If you had a Super Beetle, they are front steer, so the calipers want to live on the rear of the spindle.

On your car, given the super light front end and low CG (even moving all available weight forward) your F/R brake bias calcs likely barely reach 50/50 at the braking limit of street tires, even very sticky ones.
http://brakepower.com/
(I will try to get real dimensions and weights when i have my suspension apart ~Memorial Day weekend)

2 pairs of 996/boxster S radial mounts (used front and rear) with 30/28mm pistons, using 944T rear rotors (24mm) and early Boxster non-S front rotors (24mm) looks most viable. The brackets would essentially only need to be be some thick angle iron or accurately welded angle stock. Should work with stock master cyl. fine.

Strongly considering going there myself, I can use the Wilwoods elsewhere.

I have a refund return mail sticker from the seller of the 944T front calipers, wanted to look at keeping them but I suspect they are too large for even my fat chick T3 front end weight.

One issue with Wilwoods is they aren't friendly to the cheap/common 24 or 28mm Boxster/996 rotors.
The very common .810 rotor specs work with a slight pad shave for 24mm. (.866")
(orderable retail thinner but at significant extra cost, and the offset shifts)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks?

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 20, 2016 6:34 pm

Just realized the rear 944 Turbo rotors would work fine up front, dia offset etc.
Might be a few oz heavier than equivalent 996/986 S fronts, but not much.
The 2mm reduced offset vs 986S is a feature for what we are looking at.
Having a set to work with makes life easier.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 20, 2016 11:01 pm

Well, Because Racing Season and Bilstein apparently being backlogged a ~month, I dug around in my stash and have 4 good Japanese Kayaba KG4521s.(two still attached to a 73 Bay Bus named "Shed") think I have one more newish set as well.
(AKA KYB gas-a-justs)
They are ~20mm short for the 944 setup, but I suspect I won't be off roading to test max extension...
Plus the 4-Ways actually stop the arms just before the spring plates hit the hard stop on extension.
(the springs are attached at both ends, work sort of as spring type bump stops would for ext and compression do if they had preload both ways)

The steel 12mm shock bushings are nice and thick and can easily be drilled out to 14mm.
These will be installed shaft down, as any monotube shock can and probably should be of not for the stupid splash cover.

The fronts may get some 5wt shock oil and I will play with the gas pressure if i can convert them to take aparts, can't seem to find anything online about doing that on KYBs, but I'll eyeball it tomorrow, at least they are 36mm body shocks.
If held together with a snap ring like Bilsteins they are coming apart and getting schrader valves, and probably cut for the coil-over adapter snap ring.

...have to cut most of the dust shield off to mount the 4-Way Shock coil overs anyway, so all will be revealed.

Anyone know where you can get remote reservoirs cheap? :twisted:

IIRC the rears were acceptable damping, but the same on the much lighter front end was dental filling-removing.
Same shock is spec'd for all T1/t3 rears (IRS), T3 fronts, and bay bus fronts.
...so 1 ton van to heavy rear of a squareback to lightweight front end of same...
I'm pretty sure that's just a little too wide a range for the same shock oil// valving.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by 681tonburb » Sat May 21, 2016 4:06 am

Ya i need to just sit down with my calipers and spindles and see what I can come up with . Vdubenginnerring turned the 944 hubs to use a vw bearing and then used the 944 rotors. When I bought the 944 turbo stuff many years ago it was all the rage for big brakes on a bug. I will probly do my shocks more towards the end of the build when I have a better idea on the weight of the car. It will be real light I'm sure . For you shock parts you can try off road engineering they sell parts for king and fox shocks the king shocks and parts are affordable fox you need deep pockets .

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by 681tonburb » Sat May 21, 2016 12:41 pm

Ok did some shopping around today . Think you convinced me to figure it out my self going to use the vdubenginnerringeering way .going to take the 944 hubs and turn them to take the bug bering and just figure out how to make the adaptor . I have acess to a lath so maybe I'll just turn a set of new hubs if I have to . You can. Get used 944 hubs on flebay for about 100 a set down side is I would like to use a Chevy or ford lug pattern and the way the 944 hub is made with rotor mounted on back side I can't redrilling it have to use adaptors .my car is wider then the vw body was so I can afford the extra track width from adaptors but I would think. it would have to start effecting steering geometry

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by Piledriver » Sat May 21, 2016 2:20 pm

wider front beam and coil overs would help fill the wheelwells.

The 944 hubs get inserts for the smaller T1 bearings, not sure which seal to use, but I'm sure Lanner does.

Turning the OD of the 944 hub down allows use of the late model cheap 996>Boxster or boxster S rotors, or the 944 T rear rotors for that matter, if making your own brackets the slightly reduced offset is helpful.

I'm considering taking my own advice on that and just buying a second set of 944 rear rotors for the front.
Probably using the 996/ boxster s rear calipers all around, they are cheap and plentiful, and i already have a set of rears.

OTOH the Wilwoods for the front are right sized also on hand, but for you the 944 or 996 rears all around make sense.
I'm sure you could sell the whole existing setup easily and at a profit if desired.

If you are really looking to go with Chevy pattern, there are other options, The T3 rear hubs redrilled for chevy and perhaps chevy or pinto stub axles welded into the drop spindles up front are more viable options than just adapters.

The t3 rear hubs are available in a few patterns from isp west and cb performance, the cb bits are not listed as separate parts online but procurable via phone call.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by 681tonburb » Sat May 21, 2016 2:35 pm

Ya I need to find a front and rear rotor to play with . I think k the 944 rear axle stubs can be redrilled .is the rear hat deeper or shorter ? May be able weld a plate on the front of hub re drill the lug holes to Chevy and then pit the rotor over the hub face in stead of on it .

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by Piledriver » Sat May 21, 2016 3:59 pm

5x5 bolt on adapters/spacers may be a stronger option, assuming 5x130>5x4.5 or 5x5 adapters exist---
most folks are adapting X TO Porsche rims, not from.

The hub is pretty thin in between the studs, and the offset between the porsche and chevy 5x5 is only .13", even 5x4.5 overlaps some.

Out front that can work with the right offset wheels, but if you really need to add a couple inches per side a wider beam is a better plan up front.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
681tonburb
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:46 am
Location: Florida

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by 681tonburb » Sat May 21, 2016 4:10 pm

Ya I would rather not have any more wdith off the front. from the spindle out the beam is how I planed on getting everything right after I get this figured out. Man hope I'm not hijacking Your thread but I have an idea don't know if in crazy or not but. What if I turn the brake drum down to use as the hub and put a disk over it finding a disk with the right off set meat be a chalanger I have a set of rotors from a g35 at the house there 5 on 4.5 like ford that would open up a lot of off the shelf wheel choices . Wheels with the Porsche patter you have to get a second mortgage to get .

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: aluminum 944 arms--- what shocks? Brakes?

Post by Piledriver » Sat May 21, 2016 4:14 pm

Drilled out the lower (non-body) end of a KYB KG4521 for a T1/T3 rear or T3 front to 14mm in order to fit the 944 lower shock bolts.

These are ~20mm shorter than the 944T shocks, but as the car is lowered a bit anyway that's probably a feature.

Took the dust cover off via grinding out the spot welds, leaving the "cup" to attach the Four-Way spring setup, and found what I expected---
KYB Gas-A-justs are held together just like Bilstein monotubes.

Considering converting them to take-aparts ala Bilstein method to at least put lighter shock oil in the fronts, and allowing playing with the gas pressure. I'll merrily play with a $40 (new) shock, esp a used one.

Anyone know who sells external reservoirs cheap? :twisted:

In a perfect world they'd take std 36mm Bilstein/KYB or Ohlin piston/valve shim packs, hopefully Kayaba copied Bilsteins accurately in the tiny details too.

At least they would be more useful, A LOT of Gas-A-Justs are installed and then removed as the same shocks F&R on a car with a 35/65% weight bias removes your fillings due to the fronts being way too hard.

See the little wire snap ring in the groove?
That and gas pressure keeps things together.
kyb-assy-1.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Piledriver on Sat May 21, 2016 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Post Reply