"4-Way suspension" work alike?

[Piledriver]

OK old timers, you may have heard of "4 way shocks", they were made in Oz and were only sold briefly in the US, never took off for some reason that still escapes me.

Back ~81 I picked up a set for a 70s GM G body for $20 at my regular parts store (they knew me and they Had to go) on a lark and put them on my 71 std...

Perhaps this is all a distorted recollection of my teenage years, but I'm reasonably sure it's not...
OK, I was 17, but .....Instant sports car handling (IIRC had 15x7s with 50 series Michelin's in back, 185-60s up front on Chevy SS rims out back, 5,5s up front)

I could slalom the reflectors on a Texas 2 lane at >70 MPH, (IIRC every 50 feet) which I never could duplicate with my 914LE with dual bars and much newer tech sticky tires and ~twice the power... and the ride of the bug was no worse than the 914.

The car was rock solid, unflappable over potholes/bad roads/stupid driving moves--- didn't matter., it was stuck like velcro.

These particular "4 way shocks" were flat wound coil overs that could have been easily mistaken for "helper" springs--
They were actually secured on BOTH ends in both push and pull, and clamped onto a std shock body at zero preload (at least by default)

Effectively they worked like sway bars AND anti-squat AND anti dive devices---in all axis, they resisted movement from the rest position in up OR down direction.

Now these guys are long out of business, even the domain redirects to a shock company down under and no sign of any of the original products.

I really don't feel like fabbing up clamp on dual acting coil over spring perches from scratch, so (as i made my 80 mile daily commute) my one remaining functional neuron fired and it occurred to me that one could simply make up an adjustable swaybar setup and clamp the bar in the middle (at rest) for the same effect, only adjustable.

I want to make my square handle decent, and those 4-ways made an IMMENSE handling difference without completely destroying the ride.
I would happily stick them on the 914 as well.

Does this sound plausible? Has it been tried? Have I gone guano??

[FJCamper]

Hi Piledriver,

You've unearthed a real subject here, a bit of suspension esoterica that never made it into the mainstream.

I only know of this type of suspension device secondhand, via the F1 crowd. They have tried all of the good and most of the crazy ideas. The principal is auxillery springs that resist movement up or down, as opposed to springs that support sprung weight.

My understanding of this approach is the stabilizing springs were adjusted to a neutral zero with the vehicle level and at rest. In motion, the springs resisted any forces other than level.

My guess is the common anti-roll "sway" bar has been cheap enough and good enough for mass production. And it does offer the advantage of interaction (communication) between linked wheels.

Your idea of using the split swaybar (effectively one bar per wheel) in an individual-wheel stabilizing method is good, and becomes an add-on torsion bar. It has been used as one step in F1, in the evolution that has resulted in few to no swaybars anymore on F1's.

By the way, we are used to the solid sway bar, and the hollow tube "bar" as high-tech. Sway bars evolved in F1 to flat spring variants, then vanished altogether on most cars.

FJC

[Piledriver]

Thanks for the sanity check, but I never could see any particular upside to linking the parts of an independent suspension...
(perhaps what those upsides are would be a good topic?)

The neat thing about this setup is that it would work for SA OR IRS just as well.
(it would double as a camber compensator of sorts)
I very vaugely recall seeing a setup on a F1 (or something) that looked like it had an std spring and a second link with (different top vs. bottom)) springs to deal with anything that wasn't simply holding the car up... rate for UP different vs. DOWN, similar to shock absorbers (dampers, better name).
I guess that would be ~ideal.

I'll see what I can come up with once my new spool gun arrives.
(and find a euro connector adapter in the US so I can Fix my POS mig with decent hardware, will adapt it to the TIG welder when it arrives so I can still MIG)

I've been trying my Google-fu to no avail, so I can copy a good design what would you even call something like this?

[raygreenwood]

Dang...thats an ancient one! I actually had a pair of these in my hand that I removed from a car in the Junkyard in Lexington Oklahoma back in about 1999-2000. They were...as you note....flat wound spiral isntead of round coil. It was intrigueing because at that point I was looking for solutions for the rear of my 412. They were dark blue painted. I could never find out who made them.
It was actually a smart set up. Two way resistance as oscillation control...not so much load control...from what I could tell. Ray

[Piledriver]

I have an Evil Plan...

Nice new Firepower spool gun showed up today, will take care of my MIG wire feed woes nicely once the mating "euro" connector shows up.
(Thermadyne dealer is local//Airgas, nice folks too, may never have to deal with the local red/blue yokels again)

Let's just say I'm actively hunting 944 turbo front bars, looks ~identical to the T3 aftermarket bar.
Only in 24mm. Might even work out back...

That setup worked so well... Even with the setup for a 3600 lb car on it it still rode ~OK, and handled like a skateboard.

[fusername]

i will be following this thread to its conclusion.

[yodogg]

Hi Piledriver,

Take a look at these links, are these in the ballpark of what you are describing (seems most are externally adjustable, not as straight forward)?

http://www.penskeshocks.co.uk/car/dampe ... 770series/

http://www.quadratec.com/products/produ ... &spg=t&cv=

http://www.intraxracing.nl/?cat=product ... itle=4-WAY

[Piledriver]

Some of those are exquisite adjustable damper coil over shocks.
Some are shocks with booster springs. Some are just HD shocks and I'm not really sure what the term has to do with them.
One looks like a dual rate spring setup on a coil over with a floater, but my German is unfortunately limited to asking for one more beer.*

Not even remotely I'm talking about.

"4 way shocks" branding was a bit of a marketing idiot move, as that is easily confused with (now) common adjustable dampers.
What I'm referring to aren't "shocks" at all, they are double acting springs that just happened to usually ship bolted onto some HD shocks.
....springs that resist motion up OR down (4-way==(1/2)resist roll either way+ (3) squat or (4) dive) .that exert ~no force at rest by default.

I think have seen some pics of setups that appear to even have different springs for up and down rates on F1/F3 rides in the past, and that would be relatively easy to reproduce with a bell crank setup with different springs on each side of the throw.

They could essentially replace roll bars, and if I am not mistaken this is more or less what DID replace roll bars in F1, at least at one point.
(I also allows for ~light springing at low speeds and very stiff springs when the cars effective weight ~doubles at speed due to downforce)

The "project" is to re-purpose/re-engineer a set of garden variety roll bars to do ~ the same thing effectively and cheaply, probably with a fixed clamp in the middle, it would be clamped with the vehicle at rest,no preload.(although one could preload using this setup with adjustable links)

I'd love to get my hands on a set of the originals, but If I can come up with an effective, easy to reproduce setup using common roll bar hardware, it's a win all around and becomes easily tweakable.


*(When I was working a few times in Germany the Germans mostly spoke better English than some of the folks I work with daily)

[raygreenwood]

Actually...I have seen versions of this in OLD open wheel racers...that actually had no shock...which is what you are talking about and what I was talking about. Instead the used an upper and lower perch...and a rubber snubber that floated on the rod running down the middle. The ones I saw were rather cheap but looked effective. They just would not fit. Again...no hysdraulics...just springs with caps and center guide rod.

And...if I am not mistaken....there are some still available like that for some of the simpler ATV's. The ATV accessory catalog may be worth scoping out (companies like Tucker Rocky or cabelas).

Where I wanted to used them is in the two strange looking eyes at the very end of my 412 trailing arms at the axle end opposite the pivot....between pivot and body to damy compression AND rebound rate without affecting shock valving. Much like the trailing arm arresting links at the outer ends of a Saab 900 rear end. Ray

[yodogg]

Some of those are exquisite adjustable damper coil over shocks.
Some are shocks with booster springs. Some are just HD shocks and I'm not really sure what the term has to do with them.
One looks like a dual rate spring setup on a coil over with a floater, but my German is unfortunately limited to asking for one more beer.*

Not even remotely I'm talking about.

Yeah, I didn't really think they were what you were describing, but it would have been nice to find a picture of something similar.

I must admit that I am intrigued by these "4-way shocks". The units you had, did the coils surround a monotube-type damper that was part of the set-up or were they strictly an add on to your existing "shocks" or no shock at all? Also, functionally, is this something akin to the "return-to-center" coilover steering dampers for more extreme off-road use? Obviously, we are talking about steering and not suspension, but the idea is somewhat the same- to resist the steering deflecting excessively or unexpectedly, to hasten return to center (neutral) and to prevent rebound/over correction past center.

[fusername]

What I understand, yes just like that. The spring resists the wheel going up OR down. Troy to keep you at ride height

[Piledriver]

Some of those are exquisite adjustable damper coil over shocks.
Some are shocks with booster springs. Some are just HD shocks and I'm not really sure what the term has to do with them.
One looks like a dual rate spring setup on a coil over with a floater, but my German is unfortunately limited to asking for one more beer.*

Not even remotely I'm talking about.

Yeah, I didn't really think they were what you were describing, but it would have been nice to find a picture of something similar.

I must admit that I am intrigued by these "4-way shocks". The units you had, did the coils surround a monotube-type damper that was part of the set-up or were they strictly an add on to your existing "shocks" or no shock at all? Also, functionally, is this something akin to the "return-to-center" coilover steering dampers for more extreme off-road use? Obviously, we are talking about steering and not suspension, but the idea is somewhat the same- to resist the steering deflecting excessively or unexpectedly, to hasten return to center (neutral) and to prevent rebound/over correction past center.

The "4 Way"s came as shock/spring combos or could be had as the springs/mounts only, I had the latter and stuck them on std HD bug oil shocks.
... the flat wound spring essentially threaded on to the upper and lower clamp-on spring perches mounts as applicable.

The lower was a 2 piece cast alloy bit that had (IIRC) 4 bolts to clamp together around the OD of the shock body, left loose until vehicle was at rest so they could slide around, then clamp. IIRC I preloaded the rears pulled down to drop the car a touch, also IIRC made the rear a bit softer to stay stuck, at least in my mind.

The upper... the fronts attached on the top of the late shock (shaft/stud) around the shaft on top of a washer/under nut/mount and as to the rears ...damned if I remember,I want to say I had to cut off the dust shield and it had a slotted upper/clamping lower, but I don't actually recall doing that.
OTOH I was ~17 at the time, we are talking ~1980. I have slept since then.

I suspect the effect/installation of a swaybar clamped in the middle might be easier to visualize.
Fully independent suspension with no crosstalk, the "split" swaybar would also resist movement up/down from rest, but would be ~nothing on small bumps or turns, but change the effective spring rate pretty drastically away from center.(depending on bar stiffness)

If my "how shtuff works hat' is working, it would also add to effective damping significantly, as the 2 springs would counter each other, totally different rates etc.

(The junky oil shocks I was using were never not enough, if you know what I mean, and the springs I had were meant IIRC for a 74 Monte Carlo, which was a ~2 ton beast)

For the record, IMHO 43C it too bloody hot to do much in.

[Jadewombat]

Interesting stuff, and I thought by 2011 everything had been tried. Seems we overshot the mark with some stuff. If you can't source any 4-ways, I would recommend Spax brand shocks, or not sourcing that maybe Koni. I had a set of Spax on my Golf years ago, it was like you describe a night and day difference in the ride and handling.

And that's Dutch by the way, not German.

On a related note, I talked to a dutch guy who would 'gymknana' his car (autocross). He said he was running Konis on his Fiat Abarth and Koni would have a trailer set up for the day. He said you could talk to them, describe how the car felt, etc. and what you would like to improve--now get this, take your shocks off of your car, give them to the Koni guys and they would revalve them in the trailer and run through a shock dyno and give them back to you with a printout--at no charge of course. Talk about standing behind your product, and this was years ago.

[raygreenwood]

Piledriver...the type of spring you are speaking of is actually called (at times) a transverse coil spring damper. Versions of them were used on many open wheel racing cars in 50's and 60's. The spring unit was horizontal and worked upon by a pushrod from each side of the cars upper A-arm...mostly rear suspension if memory serves. With the push pull feature...used horizontally like this....it did indeed act simultaneously like a sway bar and a leaf spring. Ray

[KentT]

Resurrecting this one from the dustbin...

I'd love to have another set of these. I used them once on a 63 sunroof in the early 70s, and they made an amazing difference for the total investment (slightly over $100 as I recall. Much cheaper than new front and rear shocks, sway-bars or compensator, etc. Totally changed the way the car handled and tended to keep it flat regardless of acceleration, deceleration, turns, etc. It handled like a go-cart in comparison. Ride was just a bit firmer, but nothing like the bone-jarring, teeth-rattling I've experience in other lowered vehicles....

Wish I could find a set today...