Ghia Road Course Setup

[FJCamper]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=148691&p=1235689&h ... 4#p1235689

[V8Nate]

Oh man FJ I was watching some of your vids on YouTube, you were pulling hard on the escort when that rocker gave up the ghost:( I also watched your "turbo beetle" video getting onto the interstate and it is pure magic hearing the power come on when that turbo starts doing its thing:) brought a smile to my face that's what it's all about!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Piledriver]

I have a squareback... bilstein sgs up front, shortened an inch with old kybs as remote resis... done for travel.
eibach coils using bilstien coil over kit.
using late large sway bar, the torsion bars are also mounted no-load or with only slight preload, making them work like 4-way shock springs (push/pull from neutral).

The front upper bar is straight across, the lower bars are not, angled up slightly, so there is some camber gain under load

rear early 944t, coil overs are converted fox 2.0 "truck" shocks, with A1 racing coil over adapters/eibachs.
I modded the cars upper shock mount for a better angle and axle/coil over clearance. late bars are also mounted no-load.

Front brakes are 1.125"x4 Wilwood superlites, rears are Brembo 944T fronts, yes fronts are smaller than rear, fronts lock first dry, ~same time in the wet. 195-55/16 front, 225/55 rear, on 944t manhole covers, 16x6 F, 16x8 R. (forged fuchs)
Front pads are pfc 14s, rear are padgid stock pads, possibly why the rears needed to be bigger.

It stops better than anything I have ever driven, and handles better than my 914 did.

If I had to do again I would skip the aluminum arms.

[xwestonx]

I have a squareback... bilstein sgs up front, shortened an inch with old kybs as remote resis... done for travel.
eibach coils using bilstien coil over kit.
using late large sway bar, the torsion bars are also mounted no-loa or with only slight preload, making them work like 4-way shock springs (push/pull from neutral).

The front upper bar is straight across, the lower bars are not, angled up slightly, so there is some camber gain under load

rear early 944t, coil overs are converted fox 2.0 "truck" shocks, with A1 racing coil over adapters/eibachs.
I modded the cars upper shock mount for a better angle and axle/coil over clearance. late bars are also mounted no-load.

Front brakes are 1.125"x4 Wilwood superlites, rears are Brembo 944T fronts, yes fronts are smaller than rear, fronts lock first dry, ~same time in the wet. 195-55/16 front, 225/55 rear, on 944t manhole covers, 16x6 F, 16x8 R. (forged fuchs)
Front pads are pfc 14s, rear are padgid stock pads, possibly why the rears needed to be bigger.

It stops better than anything I have ever driven, and handles better than my 914 did.

If I had to do again I would skip the aluminum arms.

Are you still on the stock beam up front? Curious on how this is all fab'd up. Also were you already IRS or did you convert the swing axle?

I've got a lead on a 70's 911 front and rear suspension / steering set up, but as much as I enjoyed Nate's build (the squarsche) I'm not sure if it is really worth all the fab work? I've got enough metal work to do just repairing the rust

[Piledriver]

my cars a 73, so irs.
Stock front beam, just not used exactly in the stock manner.
I considered (and even dry fit) putting 914 front arms/torsions on backwards, with a fabricated upper arm/mounts rather than a strut, but a t3 front suspension works pretty well if in good shape.

I suspect the biggest gain would be saving some weight.

[xwestonx]

but a t3 front suspension works pretty well if in good shape.

Now there’s the real question lol. Since this car was pulled out of a field where it was parked and fairly gutted many years ago (since ‘92 as far as I know), there’s a lot of “discovery” ahead. I do know that it the beam appears to have had an issue with the upper shock mount on the passenger side. It looks like someone had repaired some damage at some point by welding an additional plate to reinforce that upper mount.

Anyway, I’m moving forward with the Porsche deal since I’m scoring some OEM Fuchs out of it. No idea if I’ll use the suspension and steering components, but it gives me options if I decide the original equipment is too forgone and embrace a Frankenstein concept instead.

[Evil_Fiz]

I am trying to figure out what offset a 16" x 6.5" or 17" x 7" rim will need to have in order to maintain a 0 or factory spec scrub radius. I am considering 205/50/16 or 205/45/17 tires. Does anyone know, or have an accessible source for, the SAI and scrub radius of a Type-1 ball joint beam? I realize the wheel will most likely end up pushed outward; I am OK with this since I will be reshaping and maybe flaring the wheel arches to accommodate the changes. This will all be happening on a 70 Ghia vert.

-----
Emil

[Piledriver]

16" 5x130s have limited tire choice, might want to look at 17", much better, most are et65.
This will usually result in running spacers unless you mod the wheel tubs to prevent contact on the inside when turning.

[FJCamper]

Hi Emil,

Sometimes you learn important things by surprise. I used to think tire balancing was a real technical art until my first 24 hour at Daytona and the tire guys used a simple bubble balancer on tires we were going to run at 160 mph. I learned about wheel alignment (and scrub radius) the same way, on the Frank Williams F1 team.

Understand I was not a team member, but part of the Saudia airlines sponsorship support of the cars, providing what the team needed. I watched them "align" the suspension one day and I was just as awestruck as that time at Daytona at how simple and easy these pros made it.

They used a pyrometer to see how hot the tire's contact patch was getting, and made camber and toe adjustments to each wheel until each wheel was running an even temperature all the way across.

Scrub radius was important and checked to determine what wheel offset was doing. No calculations. No tape measures. The wheel was jacked off the ground and the crew chief cut a small piece of the yellow or white tire marking crayons we had and placed it on the bottom middle of the wheel, approximating the center. He then placed a piece of cardboard under the wheel, lowered the jack, and turned lock to lock a couple of times.

When the cardboard was removed from under the wheel, you could see the actual scrub radius circle made by the bit of crayon. Of course, you had to get the crayon in the right place on the tire, but they had that down.

The smaller the rough little circle smear, the happier the crew chief.

Understand with these chassis you could actually adjust the scrub radius, but it was not done a lot except when Formula A wheels were used over the usual F1's.

I didn't get into scrub radius in the Ghia Setup because we have no adjustments except wheel offset. Most wide-wheel Type 1 chassis have terrible scrub radius, but because they are not racing, all it causes is extreme unpredictable understeer. You'll note we run near stock scrub with 5.5" steel wheels on our 53 car and 185 tires and we run hard and fast. The average VW guy cares more about his bling than his actual performance, and is not going to really test his handling at the limit.

FJC

[Evil_Fiz]

...The average VW guy cares more about his bling than his actual performance, and is not going to really test his handling at the limit.

FJC

Unlike the "Average VW guy" I am more concerned with function than form. I'm very conservative when it comes to wheel arch aesthetics. I believe the wheel arch should symmetrically follow the wheel circumference with a 1" - 2" gap. I also believe that a cars suspension should be well utilized by tuning it to it's fullest.

Thank you Piledriver and FJCamper for your contributions. I posted a similar question on The Samba and got similar responses with the exception being to avoid 17" wheels because they would hamper performance. Do you guys, or any other contributors, have any wisdom to share about 17' wheels and tires that would keep the stock diameter while adding width? I am thinking 205/45/R17 because the car will be Subaru powered and I am aiming for 165 - 200 WHP. I plan to set my ride height at ~ 4" at the rockers with a flat stance via drop spindles, a standard width adjustable beam, and either adjustable spring plates or rear torsion bar adjusters. Once the wheel placement is determined, I will shape the wheel arches accordingly for wheel clearance. I need to ask a lot of questions because I want to get it right and I am unaware of what I don't know yet.

Thanks,
Emil

[FJCamper]

Dear Emil,

My comment about the average guy wasn't aimed at you. It is a generalization about car owners across the board. At least you know what scrub radius is. Imagine you are coming out of the chicane at Road Atlanta, accelerating, flying under the bridge for the steep downhill run towards the flag stand.

At the bottom of the hill, the track curves right. You are stuck door handle to door handle between two other cars, at 90 to 100mph or more. If your scrub radius is excessive, you are going to turn your steering wheel and your front suspension is going to steer you unexpectedly a few inches off your intended line.

At that moment, you are hoping your suspension is set up right and that the guys sandwiching you in are set up right.

We'll be running Road Atlanta beginning 25 April next year for a few days. would you like to come crew and observe?

FJC

[H2OSB]

Wow, now THAT is an invitaton!

Mr Camper, I wish you ran your team on the west coast, at least on occasion. I'm a huge fan of Leguna Seca, and hope to eventually run my '74 Super on that track someday(bucket list). I don't get over there often anymore, but would gladly make the trek over to watch a couple of aircooled VWs circulate the track at full song.

H2OSB

[Evil_Fiz]

Dear Emil,
My comment about the average guy wasn't aimed at you...

...We'll be running Road Atlanta beginning 25 April next year for a few days. would you like to come crew and observe?

FJC

I did not take your comment that way, I know what you meant. I wanted to make my view known to put my choices in context.
And yes, that is a most gracious offer. I will make every effort to take you up on it. I did not think an opportunity like that was within my grasp but you have put that mistaken assumption to rest. I will PM you as the date approaches to make arrangements. Thank you.

-----
Emil

[GS guy]

At the bottom of the hill, the track curves right. You are stuck door handle to door handle between two other cars, at 90 to 100mph or more. If your scrub radius is excessive, you are going to turn your steering wheel and your front suspension is going to steer you unexpectedly a few inches off your intended line.
FJC

FJC - your explanation of excessive scrub causing unexpected steering response describes the effect I noted with a '74 Bug I built with dropped spindles. "Everyone" said use the drop spindles vs. lowering beam - so I did both! Post assembly I realized the beam must have been assembled to be lower than stock in "full up" setting, resulting in the car sitting "very" low in front. I was using about 5" BS wheels, 15x6 with 195/50 tires, and also lowered the rear about an inch, same wheels with 205/50's and 3/4 sway bars F&R. Man it handled really good! Generally neutral feeling, except had a weird "quirk" when traveling at speed - 70-75ish on long sweepers (Washington beltway, so similar door to door situation !) - where it would go from fairly neutral to understeer with very slight speed changes! It was like a threshold, and easily repeatable, but required steering correction every time you went through that few MPH speed zone, up or down. I though it might have something to do with the car being so low in front? I later went back to std spindles (both dropped and std were disc brakes) and used the beam to get some lowering back and the "quirk" 100% went away. I think both the dropped spindles and disc set-up contributed to increasing scrub radius.
Your description seems to echo my own experience.

Fiz - I think you're going to have to measure your scrub post assembly, as the spindles, disc brake hubs, wheels and tires all provide input for that dimension. With some effort you could do a reference mock-up with the spindle off the ground as it would be with intended tire/wheel assembly, lock the hub from rotating and fit a rod to wheel bolt face that could trace the ground as you turn it lock to lock? Or just use the neat trick FJC described.
FWIW, I've read the Pro-touring muscle car crowd considers up to about 20-25% of the tire width an acceptable (maximum) amount of scrub, so about 2" on a 205 tire. Trying to minimize it is probably a good thing, until you're hitting suspension bits or the wheels you need cost 3x as much to get that last 1/4"!
Jeff

[Fiatdude]

I will shape the wheel arches accordingly for wheel clearance. I need to ask a lot of questions because I want to get it right and I am unaware of what I don't know yet.

Thanks,
Emil

I was wondering if you have any examples of what you're planning???? With my 260HP, I'm in need of something wider than the 225's I have in the rear and I'm pondering narrowing the torsions and redoing the arms. Or ???? Haven't been able to bring myself to do flares...