Anybody running coilovers?

[twizzstyle]

I've searched around here and all over the internet a LOT but can't seem to get my answer.

I have a manx sorta-look-alike Buggy, and I'm in the process of putting it back together. I would like to stiffen up the suspension a bit (I don't need it to handle great, I have a WRX for that, I just want it stiffer).

It is a '61 pan (link pin and swing axle). It has an old Select-A-Drop adjuster on the front suspenion (adjusts only the top torsion leaves) and the back is all stock. I lowered the back a few years ago by changing the bars in the swing plates, but it was too low, so I put it back to where it was, which is too high for me I don't want to get adjustable swing plates, because they are too expensive.

So my thought (since my shocks are dead and need replacing anyways) is to get these coilovers.



I've seen them in a few places, but I have too concerns:

-They are so cheap (~$60 a pair) that maybe they are total crap
-They will actually RAISE the car

I would like to lower car (front and back) by adjusting the front adjuster, and changing the splines in the back, and then use the coilovers to raise it back to where I want it. but from the picture, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of adjustment, and then again... I have a feeling they will actually raise the car.

Anybody using these? Are they a total joke?

http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/pro ... aa66d30e7c

[twizzstyle]

Here's the buggy when its all together....



And here is what I put on the back.....

[Ozzie]

I put them on my Ghia this past weekend. I will be running an autocross event on the 16th & will have more information for you after that. But for now I can tell you what I know.
1) The shocks are total crap. They are much softer than the KYB's I took off.
2) They raised my rear by 1-1/4" at the lowest setting (measured at the wheel CL). Remember that my Ghia is a sagging 35 year old car & tired in the @$$.
3) The spring retainer (top) appears to be removable. I haven't tried to take it off yet, but it seems you could & cut down the length of the coil.

More to follow as I see how they do.

[twizzstyle]

Oh good! Thanks! If the top seat was removable and I cut could cut the spring, I would be set!

[WD-40]

I've had 'em on my Super for about 4 years now- ran my first event just a month or so ago.

I pretty much needed them to keep my rear tires from rubbing the fenders, but I found that the increase in spring rate made a substantial difference in the amount of body roll I had! So I've always kept them on for that reason.

They *DID* raise my rear end a bit though. In the future, I'll probably re-adjust the torsion bars to lower it, but still keep these on.

- David

[twizzstyle]

I went ahead and bought one set just to experiment. The top spring seat will come right off no problem, so if I want to use them on the front I can cut the spring down (but don't think I need to, so will probably just leave them on the back only).

On the back I moved the swing plates 3 splines from where they were (which was either at the stock location, or one spline higher) and then put the coilovers in on their softest setting. The car is just a little too low there, so I should be able to raise them on the coilovers to exactly where I want.

They are tricky to put on because un-loaded, they are about 3 inches longer than the shock mounts... so I put the top one on, and then used a jacked to jack up the bottom and then slide the bolt through... it was tricky and pretty dangerous, but they're on!

No idea on the ride yet, as the buggy isn't quite drivable yet, but very close.

[Ozzie]

Yep. Comes apart in your hands. I used a cut-off wheel to shorten the coil. Cut the big (lower) end cause the top is smaller diameter to fit the retainer ring. I cut off 5/8" and there was still enough coil left to fill the distance betwee upper & lower perches. The shock assembly is about 3/4" longer than the shock mounts with the wheels off the ground. I will be cutting more to lower the rear of the car some more but I'll use some PL200 (construction adhesive) to glue in the retainer ring. I'm afraid that when the suspension expands, there will not be enough tension to hold the ring in.

[peterericb]

wow, I guess it is because I have the overload all the way to the highest, but these are the stiffest shock I have ever put on any of my cars. I had to significantly compress them to even put them on, which gives me a rediculious spring rate... There are disadvantages to such a dramatic preload, but it fits my driving style really well.

I just can't believe anyone would call these "Soft". I am gonna have to adjust mine to see if it really is the height adjustment.

[Ozzie]

Peter, they are Empi brand from JCW. Two names that carry questionable conotations with them. The next batch of shocks might come out completely different. Depending on what day of the week, what's laying around the shop, ect...

My buddy & I have been reverse engineering & discecting these to see what we can come up with. A set of Carrara coil-overs go for $500. We think we can do better.

[Ozzie]

Results update:
First, I hope everybody here knows the differences between autocrossing & road racing. My perceptions of the two are that road, or circuit racing is smooth control, where autocross is a balance between smoothness and downright, utter violence. I autocross.
The coilovers did three things; 1) jacked up the rear over an inch, 2) the shocks are softer than the ones I took off, & 3) increased spring rate. Sunday, yesterday, was my sixth event. The course was set up tighter & slower than I have seen before. My plowing problem still exists. But only in the "controlled" sweepers. Anywhere else, the butt's coming around. A first for me. Untill now, the rear han never broken out. All the car used to do is understeer. In the tight jerking back & forth of a slalom or switchback, I felt the rear lift & fish. Easy to control with steering into the slide. Each run was finished with a four wheel drift, sideways through the fish-hook cones & lighs. Wow.
Still waiting on the Whiteline rear. I've already ordered the big ol torsions & bushings for the rear. So, my set up will keep changing till I'm satisfied. Test, tune, repeat.
Ozzie

[volkswagen50]

Hey Oz, when you get the big rear torsions, swap those coil overs up front and get a set of good shocks on the rear, like Bilsteins (100/pair) Even KYB. The weak sprins up front are you're cuplrit on the rear swinging out. i had huge problems with plowing on tight turns two weeks ago. I was sick as a dog and should have remembered to turn hard and then brake to get the car to rotate in the tight stuff. It works for me. It's backwards compared to how I attack faster turns, but with no bar in the rear and stock springs, I have to try anything to get around quick. Now get some good tires on that ghia and go for it! Greg

[Ozzie]

Thanks for the tips Greg. We're going to race the same event one of these days.

Torsions & associated hardware are due from UPS tomorrow.
(Thanks John)
Global Performance finally has the sway bar from Aus.
Yippie!!!!

[Roflhat]

long time, anybody done any more testing with these?

[ErikTande]

Yep. Comes apart in your hands. I used a cut-off wheel to shorten the coil. Cut the big (lower) end cause the top is smaller diameter to fit the retainer ring. I cut off 5/8" and there was still enough coil left to fill the distance betwee upper & lower perches. The shock assembly is about 3/4" longer than the shock mounts with the wheels off the ground. I will be cutting more to lower the rear of the car some more but I'll use some PL200 (construction adhesive) to glue in the retainer ring. I'm afraid that when the suspension expands, there will not be enough tension to hold the ring in.

I got a set of these cheap and threw them on my 72 standard bug, they raised the front up an inch though. I'm going to try chop a coil off the bottom and see how it does. I'll post some pics when I do it.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

twizzstyle, I tried to PM you with this but it wasn't opened. Even though I am an off-roader I have been around several types of cars and racing cars. Also I belonged to a couple of clubs that did several types of rallying and several styles of Auto-Xing.

I do not recommend mixing coil springs with torsion bars. Even though coils are a type of torsional spring coils and torsion bars each react at different speeds with the torsion bar being the slower of the two (MOPAR discovered this in the 60s and 70s (not sure how long they stayed with it or maybe they still do). This means that they can interfere with each other and cancel out the best of either system. Coils can be wound progressively where torsion bars get stiffer as they wind up more.

I would look into better shocks then tune the suspension after. Shocks/dampeners control the springs absorbing and releasing of stored energy in a more controlled manner. You want properly valved shocks/dampeners, maybe even rebuildable ones. KYB GR2 are OK for street use... maybe but once you really put them to the test they can be found wanting. Go to a performance series of shock from Koni, Bilstein, Fox or several others but not through box stores as they usually either don't carry them or have to send off for them.



This might help you on setting the ride height. It works for both raising the car and lowering it. As you add more preload the suspension stiffens and lowering it lessens the spring rate. You can also buy several different torsion bars to meet your needs.

Front beams: The AVIS is OK for the street but when you start pushing it hard it can loosen up. The Sway-a-way system is more positive and better locked in place. Also remember that there are shims w/longer bolts to help with caster when needed. Also, you might look into adding some support to the shock mounts especially the BJ ones.

If you have at it properly the first time you should be able to spend less money in the long run by not having to buy then rebuy until you think you have it right or quit in frustration.

Don't forget sway bars and truss/traction bars for the rear of the car.

Stay away from the overload coil over shock style such as EMPI sells. If the car raises and stays there then the coil is taking over. The shocks in them are not what you would want for performance either as already has been said.

I hope this helps.

Lee

My opinion is worth something less than you paid for it.