How to keep Ring and pinions in your trans????????????????

Discuss VW transaxles and transmissions. Gearheads wanted!

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:03 pm

boredandstroked wrote:
Scott Gilbert wrote:Boredandstroked, Did you get my PM? I’m interested in your intermediate housing. Send me an email: strokermcdell@yahoo.com
I did, I PM'd you back. I will email tonight (2-3 am eastern) if I havn't heard from you by then.
I've PM'd and emailed. Let me know soon if you are interested please.

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:20 am

For those who care I passed the 50 pass mark and the 1.38 60' time mark and the trans is still together. Type1 potato chip be good to me...
This is an 1800+ pound pan car naturally asperated to refresh memories.

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:23 am

One secret I have yet to mention is that I keep a block of wood in the car and I knock on it before every pass :lol: . Seriously...

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Muffler Mike
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Post by Muffler Mike » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:18 am

I put pass number 50 on my box the other weekend too.
for me. 1930 lbs on the Denver scales. (OUCH!)
i havent had the 60ft times, but have had some decent vehicle reaction times into the .240 range. (trying to punt it out of the hole for the pro light)
Although i had 2 passes that rattled my teeth on the last outing (chattered and shook) and noticed the ring and pinion wine get louder after those passes.
have one more outing this year before it comes apart for the typical inspection. If i am lucky, 4-7 more passes to go this year.

Bruce2
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Post by Bruce2 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:24 am

Muffler Mike wrote:.....noticed the ring and pinion wine get louder after those passes.
have one more outing this year before it comes apart for the typical inspection. If i am lucky, 4-7 more passes to go this year.
You got some cajones!
Good luck

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:27 am

Wheel hop is your worst enemy. It would pay to take a peak at your differential before another pass. It's so easy to inspect the diff area, and you might save yourself a huge expense. (A stitch in time.. )

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Muffler Mike
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Post by Muffler Mike » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:14 am

i have gotten quite good and listening to things over the years and have a pretty good feel for when its time to check. It is still nothing like my 4.37's use to get.
Now that i have said that, its probably going to brake.

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:36 pm

Muffler Mike wrote:i have gotten quite good and listening to things over the years and have a pretty good feel for when its time to check. It is still nothing like my 4.37's use to get.
Now that i have said that, its probably going to brake.
Go out and get your self a piece of 2x4 and clamp it on to a cage bar where you can reach it and you'll be fine for the rest of the year :wink: .

I think most of us that have had a lot of box failures know the "sound" of doom. But trying to describe it is difficult. Luckily I haven't heard that sound in two years. I'm gonna try to get 75passes but I don't think I will be able to get another 15 passes in this year. The box is coming out over the winter for regearing otherwise I'd leave it in till it popped (which I'm hoping would have been years). If the R&P looks good I may just leave it in.

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:43 pm

When you've gone through lengths to keep the R&P in mesh (as you have), you'd be surprised how long the 3.88 will last BEYOND when you would normally remove it from service. Those cracks take some time to fully "develop" :wink:

Carl Nolen
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Post by Carl Nolen » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm

1.38 60 ft is quite impressive for the ghia boredandstroked. I saw your wheelies over on vwracingnews.com . Hanging them high. From our last conversation, I'd say 50 passes is a record. I just checked my files on my last r&p I changed out in June. 126 passes. I would had probably got more if the traction was not so unbelieveable at the Red River race. It was so sticky that day, I would do the smallest first gear burnout and stage. Still yanked the tires over the tree. Sounds like the recent Vegas race was like that. Probably could have got away with no burnout at all. After the semi's at that race for me, I heard that doom sound in the tranny. That fast rotation spin sound like I rolled the pinion teeth over to preload the gears together. It did hold up for the finals. Sure enough, I had ripped two pinion teeth up at the root. You could not see it until the pinion bearing was removed. Hey, I'll take 126 passes anyday out of a potato chip. I'm putting nitrous on over the winter so I can cut those 1.38 60 ft times. We'll see how the r&p holds up with that extra stress. Trying to get in the 6.70-6.80 area. So I can dail in the sixes like your east coast boys. Seems like all you guys dail in the sixes out there. Sure would be nice if we could have a super bug-in in Memphis or so to where the sevwa,tvwdra, cscdra, txpra, and the ecpra could mix it up. Big money bracket race with pro stocks. Be cool huh? Later, Carl.

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Muffler Mike
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Post by Muffler Mike » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:31 am

I think i will do just that. got lots of pieces of 2x4 laying around to strap in the car :D
thinking about it this morning, sound can be part of the imagination too.
the championship was on the line, i had 2 valve train issues in the last 2 finals, i probably could have heard a pin drop at rpm.

I do know that the sound i hear is just the usual slow roll over of the r&p that i normally hear when i coast back. its nice and smooth. I remeber a few times when things didnt sound smooth and had that lumping wine sound. Every time that thing rotated, the pitch of the sound would change. almost like a heart beat. Then i knew i was in trouble.

But we will see, i just spent a little more money on an upgrade, and might not have enough left to go racing next week. Will have to do some money searching.

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:13 am

I hear ya on the money searching :( ...
I was once told racing a VW would be cheap...

I damaged ALOT of things except the tranny last weekend. Got it all sorted and back in shape and ready for this weekend. The car was doing some monster wheelies and was extremely violent on its way to sub 1.4 60' times. I ended up knocking the steering box around on the beam, bending the long tie rod, destroying my wheelie bars and rear mount etc... But the ole tranny held. I installed some KSR wheelie bars that hopefully will control the car and improve the e.t and 60'. Plus the cost of fuel just to get to the track is enough to buy a small island. Sell some plasma and get to the track Mike. People like to see you race besides what fun you have.

twoghias
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Post by twoghias » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:25 am

pablo, b & s'd, mm and all. curious as to the r&p's you use. are they all new? what brand names? or do you have any decent luck with used (good condition)gears ? the used gears make for more labor intensive setup but they still are obtainable. is all the goodie your getting out of your gear sets on brand new sets?

also...does exactly how your r&p breaks give you any witness as to what was wrong with your setup. we are all talking about ring gear failure here. what about breakage on the pinion head? i went through "potatoe chip" wars with a heavy, 2300 lb-w/driver street car, 200 hp/250hp on the juice. on one of many catastrophies, the pinion head was cleaned off at the root of every tooth, with almost all the teeth still whole. i assumed this ment i had optimum gear mesh and the struggle was with asking for more than possible. was this telling me anything besides to go on a diet?

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:04 pm

I think it's pretty well accepted that a moderately used R&P will give better life than a brand-new one. Hewland even insists that race teams put a minimum of 100 easy miles on an R&P before racing it. Of course, that was all before isotropic normalizing (super polishing) became available. I think with this process, all previous recommendations are dated.

The only "brand" to use to date is VW. 3.88G or 4.12O for Type I and 4.57G (or 4.86G is certainly OK) for Type II.

In a properly set-up R&P, the ring gear is never the issue. Not a lot of specifics can be determined from a pinion that is missing all teeth, other than a LOT more can be done -- especially if this is just one of many failures. Any recommendations in set-up have been spelled out in absolute detail above. Complete success in a 200-250 hp in a heavy street car is no comparison to 75-150 runs in a drag car.

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:16 am

twoghias wrote:pablo, b & s'd, mm and all. curious as to the r&p's you use. are they all new? what brand names? or do you have any decent luck with used (good condition)gears ? the used gears make for more labor intensive setup but they still are obtainable. is all the goodie your getting out of your gear sets on brand new sets?

also...does exactly how your r&p breaks give you any witness as to what was wrong with your setup. we are all talking about ring gear failure here. what about breakage on the pinion head? i went through "potatoe chip" wars with a heavy, 2300 lb-w/driver street car, 200 hp/250hp on the juice. on one of many catastrophies, the pinion head was cleaned off at the root of every tooth, with almost all the teeth still whole. i assumed this ment i had optimum gear mesh and the struggle was with asking for more than possible. was this telling me anything besides to go on a diet?
I run only used R&Ps original german stuff. IF weddle ever introduces a new one I will try it but won't be expecting more than a good used one. The choice of used R&Ps is getting to be a problem. If you use a "junk" used R&P your screwed, but finding excelelnt examples of R&Ps from used boxes is becoming increasingly difficult. 80% of my success I attribute to starting with really good used R&Ps. Alot of damage can be done to a R&P in day to day service that will only be a problem when you take it to the strip. For example I noticed that if I had an extremely hard and violent launch and let of the gas a failure would follow. I can only assume that the backlash from deceleration was having an effect on the R&P, imagine how often you unload/reload decelerate etc.. on the street. If you get a pinion that was beat on in its previous life, loose pinion bore "big nut" or loose pinion or mainshaft tail nut etc... that you find in used boxes, it just won't live no matter how you build your box.

6 more passes BTW so I am in the 60s. 6.6x e.t.s, 1.38-1.42 60', 1800+lbs, NA engine, potato chip puttin the power to the ground. :D = the way I feel about my trans...

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