How to keep Ring and pinions in your trans????????????????

Discuss VW transaxles and transmissions. Gearheads wanted!

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Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am

Scott, The stock housing can be used, but it obviously doesn't offer the rigidity of a purpose-built aluminum housing. Also, the stock mag alloy tends to scorch a tad, whereas the aluminum doesn't at all. Better than nothing, though.

Autocraft used to offer a housing that was a decent replacement for the Elephant unit, but apparently no longer. Boredandstroked may have a couple for sale. Yeah, Webster parts were always a bit on the expensive side.

The bearing remains the same. Only about 1mm of the bearing support material is sacrificed for the thrust washer arrangement. The procedure doesn't otherwise affect the needle bearing.

The mainshaft ball bearing plate is also a must-do. It's part of the "package" to keep everything properly contained. (The Elephant kits included a laser-cut stainless steel mainshaft bearing plate, but the original Weddle stamped steel plate does a fine job.)

Scott Gilbert
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Post by Scott Gilbert » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:43 am

Pablo, thanks for the good info. This is the kind of detail that brings tranny building to a whole new level.

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about ring gear movement lately. I saw the pic of the through stud on the Rhino case, but I’ve been wondering if there is a stronger solution. I’m sure that over the years there have been a lot of people with different ideas, like the girdle thing in the How to Hotrod book. Here are a few things I have been thinking of…

1) I’ve heard that drag racers back in the day would make drill out (4) of the (8) sidecover studs in favor of long studs. Would some of the case rigidity be lost? I figured if this was a good practice more people would be doing this today.

2) When I bought my ’67 it came with a “built box” that I grenaded after a few passes down the strip. I tore it down for usable parts and found that it had a 2-pc sidecover made by Transform (I think). The center section is made from a trimmed down stock sidecover, but the main section is made from steel plate. I thought that the sidecover had to be fairly rigid because it is steel plate. Why doesn’t anyone make these anymore? To tie the sidecovers together I thought that I could make (2) of the steel plate sidecovers with some added wings and use 3 or 4 additional long studs going sidecover to sidecover. A friend has access to laser and water jet cutting so I could easily make the steel plates.

3) A friend just found this on the net:

http://eyeball-engineering.net/Thepackage.html

This is the same as my #2 idea, but uses normal sidecovers. It also includes some tierods going from the sidecovers towards the front. You happen to know what the purpose of the tierods are? Is there front/rear movement issue that I’ve never heard of before?

Thanks again.

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:46 am

The studs that can be through-drilled are in the wrong location to be of any benefit at all, whereas the Rhino's through-bolt shown in the photo is in the perfect location. That single bolt is the only one needed, and does a better job than any external girdle (even if very high quality, which I have yet to see).

The full-circle Transform side covers were a great idea, but rarely had a center section with a round, properly-sized bearing bore. Better to go with Weddle's full-circle side covers.

If there were room for it, a thrust button would be the answer to limit ring gear deflection for drag racing. But I just don't think that there's room for one, even if a custom diff & cover were made. Bigger/better bearings can certainly help. Other than that, eliminating forward pinion movement and side cover lift-off are the best we can do.

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Frito Bandito
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Post by Frito Bandito » Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:41 pm

Pablo wrote: a thrust button would be the answer to limit ring gear deflection for drag racing.
Do tell more Thrust Button?

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:40 am

Frito Bandito wrote:
Pablo wrote: a thrust button would be the answer to limit ring gear deflection for drag racing.
Do tell more Thrust Button?
I designed a system for the use of a thrust button, but boy what a pita. I have yet to fully manufacture a complete set up. Instead I ditched the aluminium spool in favor of steel. A thrust button would still be cool and I can completely describe EVERY thing needed to do it on a type 1 swing axle (IRS would be easier), but I really don't think its needed. On full out boxes the most cracks come at the Base of the pinion (when everything else is correct). They usually start about 1/3 of the way down the pinion tooth at exactly the end of the ring gear tooth contact and go over the pinion tooth at the angle of the ring gear tooth contact, towards the bearing end, over the top and down to the back. Also I have seen the face of the pinon bearing, where the pinion sits on the bearing, bust off. I have seen this twice now. Once on my own box and once on another extreme box I get to peek in frequently.

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:27 am

For such a puny R&P, I have seen pretty surprising longevity when everything is kept snug. If a large enough diameter thrust button can be installed, it's the one remaining worthwhile mod for maintaining R&P mesh not already covered in this thread. But, as bored&stroked says, the benefits may not show in a transmission that already has all the above mods performed.

The button would need to be of substantial diameter so that it won't bend. (A special bronze-aluminum alloy is favored for its wear characteristics.) Ideal location would be adjacent to the through-bolt (where maximum ring gear deflection occurs). The through-bolt would be necessary to hold the cover down tight.

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Frito Bandito
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Post by Frito Bandito » Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:46 pm

Ok so this button would press against, its seems that we would have to redevelop a carrier for the button to ride against am I seeing it right? The ring gear bolts don’t seem to leave room for much. But it is a good idea B&S.

Now tell me the benefit of the steel sleeve. It seems to me we still have steel agin aluim just less aluminum. I can see steel on steel would allow less wobble.

Need more.

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:15 pm

That's correct. A new diff would have to be made that has a ring gear flange larger in diameter than the ring gear, with the button set against the overhang area. We've sold a fair number of HD side covers with thrust buttons for Porsche Turbo boxes (where the button actually rides on the edge of the large diameter ring gear), but I just don't think there's room in the VW Type 1.

It seems that the greater the interference fit of the steel sleeve in the case, the better the bearing bore will then resist ovaling. I used to put these in so tight that remachining the mainshaft needle bearing bore was also required.

BTW, steel sleeves are nothing new in the VW main housing. I believe it was early EMPI that used to sell a repair sleeve for oval pinion bearing bores back in the late 60's. It wasn't a big seller.

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Henryhoehandle
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Here is Pablo's Thrust Button Pic

Post by Henryhoehandle » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:08 pm

Image[/img]

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:15 pm

Basically you have to make the outer edge of the spool flat. Using 12 point bolt and using a "ring" to go over the bolts, that would be a sort of press fit over the bolts, you make the outer area where the bolts are completely flat. The ring is quite thin and only a couple thousandths of an inch thick above the bolt heads. There are some self lubricating materials that a very strong that would be up to the task. Then you need a large alloy roller button. This is the tricky part. The button must be installed through the side cover where the axle retainer plate sits. You would need to add a lug to the side cover and fit the axle tube plate around it. You will also have to clearance the daisy cup. Now this at first seems impossible but if you stare at it long enough you can see how it can be done. I would not think it would work well in a car that sees a lot of street use since axle travel will be a bad thing. But you can still have full travel; just the repeated travel part would probably lead to leaking around the lug. This CAN be done. Ideally it would be done with a complete billet side cover and axle retainer from Weddle. I also toyed with a much simpler idea of installing buttons in EACH ring gear retaining bolt. Again with a self lubricating HD material. Then each could be set with <.001 clearance to a solid side cover (preferably steel) and it would be similar to running a button. This can be done by threading the bolt heads and machining a recess into them. The down fall may be that the "buttons" will be too thin to be durable or the bolt head may be made too thin to accommodate a thicker "button".

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:30 am

Mendeola's have a "load bolt" that threads though the side of the case and contacts the ring gear.it's supposed to curb ring gear deflection.I personally feel that a t-1 r/p is so small in diameter that a button or,or deflection device is not necessary.I truly believe the pinion is leaving the ring gear,not vice versa

Scott Gilbert
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Post by Scott Gilbert » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:20 am

Boredandstroked, Did you get my PM? I’m interested in your intermediate housing. Send me an email: strokermcdell@yahoo.com

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The Inspector
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Post by The Inspector » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:44 pm

Holy Moly, This is the most informative post I can recall reading anywhere. So tell me Pablo, what should I expect to pay for a Drag Box as you described in your first reply? Spooled Rhino,assembled as you described? I have a quote, am just about ready to order and would like hear from YOU on this.. Thanks Paul "The Inspector"

Pablo
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Post by Pablo » Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:57 am

I haven't kept up with prices, but perhaps 12 years ago I would charge around $2,800 (without axles). I don't build them any longer, but I'm happy to share info ---

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boredandstroked
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Post by boredandstroked » Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:05 pm

Scott Gilbert wrote:Boredandstroked, Did you get my PM? I’m interested in your intermediate housing. Send me an email: strokermcdell@yahoo.com
I did, I PM'd you back. I will email tonight (2-3 am eastern) if I havn't heard from you by then.

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