Hurst/EMPI shifter

Discuss VW transaxles and transmissions. Gearheads wanted!

Moderator: Henryhoehandle

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:38 am

I did a quick search but didn't go all the way through it. What information I am looking for has to do with the reverse lock out cable and how/where does it run down the handle without having to tear either of mine apart.

The reason is that I want to slightly bend the bend a bus shifter for my black buggy but don't want to damage the tunnel the cable runs through so that it pinches the cable so it doesn't work right. Also I am worried about the bend stretching the run so that the cable is too short.

Looking at the bug version I have laying around there is a center piece that pulls up the gate but without grinding away the 4 rivets' to break things apart it isn't really that clear how the whole things works. I gather I could either (maybe) re-rivet the two nylon pieces together or maybe carefully bolt them together with minimum thread sticking out then either spiking or peening the end of the bolt to the nut. Not too sure why rivets rather than bolts e.g., clearance I am not seeing or what.

I did a search on exploded views of the Hurst/EMPI (aka EMPI trigger shifter) but they don't get to the internals. An example: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ex ... ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ex ... ajaxhist=0

This shows the gate and the "washer" that lifts the gate.

I'd sure appreciate some help on this.

Lee

Clonebug
Posts: 2958
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Clonebug » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:03 pm

I just had to fix my Empi shifter since two of the rivets gave way.
I used a couple screws and nuts I had laying around to replace them and so far it works great.
The cover doesn't sit quite as low but this winter I might replace the screws with count sunk screws to make it right.

I never looked at the cable though so I'm no help to you.

You should be able to pull the rivets and take it apart if you desire and use some screws to replace them.
Surely you can come up with something since Boeing must have had every screw known to man and you can dig some up at a supply store. :wink: :)
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:23 pm

:lol: Oh yeah but the surplus store isn't open any more. Stuff I could use in design and what i can get on tbe outside is amazingly different. Lengths of fasteners that are standards are designed in 1/16ths or 1/32ths but are only stocked in stores by 1/4" length variations.

I was stymied by the rational that they're using and why so.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:59 pm

Sitting on my desk is a EMPI shifter for a bug. Other than a quick, cheap, easy way of doing things I see no reason to use anything but bolts and I don't think they would have to be CSK as there is nothing in the way assuming the nuts and washers aren't huge.. Mine has so much sand mixed in with the lube it is hard to see much. I could take it apart I guess but that spring on the one side that holds the shifter over looks to be pretty stiff (I'm playing with is as I write) so getting it in and out look daunting. Then there is that and the odd spring holding down the lock out gate.

I guess I am going to bite the bullet and clean the whole area out so I can actually see things. The owner of Autovice in Lynnwood thinks that as long as I bend close to the other bend and stay away from the trigger Ishould be OK. I am sure the chrome is not going to hold up in the bend but there is still paint that can be done. I'd still like to see what the hole in the center looks like.

Lee

Bruce2
Posts: 6776
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:01 am

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Bruce2 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:48 am

It's tubing! That means the hole is at least ½" ID.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:43 am

Thanks Bruce. I have heard the word "hole" used and other things said that had me thinking a solid rod bored so i hadn't even thought "tube".

I'm seriously debating about taking the bug shifter I have apart to see just whas going on. There are things on it that i don't feel sure of such as the weight and a certain feel to it that makes me think that if it is a tube then it could be fairly thick wall which could change the minimum bend radius... maybe by quite a bit. If it is a rod then what happens to the hole and will the bend affect the length of the wire.

If I do pull the shifter have apart I will take detailed pix.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:43 pm

Image

In this picture the shifter is in 4th ; notice that the turning brake handles are against the shift rod.

Image
The next two pictures shows the shifter in 3rd. It also shows a proposed bend of 20 degrees. There is plenty of room for the turning brake handles to allow me to grab both handles at the same time to lock the diff.

Image
This shows the bend at 17 degrees. I think it could go as low as 15 degrees but this seems to be about the best angle to allow me full control of the shifter and the turning brakes.

Both of these angles allow me to keep the turning brake handles where they are now and still be able to grab both at the same time.

I had been in contact with Art and he reminded me that the EMPI trigger shifter for a bug was in the $50 range (I checked and it is) so I am a little bit less hesitant about taking a chance breaking this one down for photos as it was my back up shifter but, assuming that the Scat Dragfast shifter will not be used not assuming I can safely bend this one it will be my back up unit now. Still thinking about it but less apprehensive now.

Lee

Clonebug
Posts: 2958
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Clonebug » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:51 pm

The spring that holds the shifter into the third/fourth gear position broke on my shifter this spring.
I went to my favorite "Ace Is The Place" store and found a spring that was close to the same diameter and length and installed that into the same position. It has worked for at least six months and wasn't too bad to install.
A few choice words and a couple tools used in a way not advertised got it fixed....... :wink: :roll: :lol:
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:58 pm

I'm going to have to order a few parts before it goes back together but I do have pictures :lol: . Between you and Bruce, thanks for the slight push (I'm serious) towards taking it apart. I feel more comfortable about doing the bending now. Just have to find someone that can do it for me.

Bruce2
Posts: 6776
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:01 am

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Bruce2 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:51 pm

Finding someone to bend it will be a bit more difficult than you think. That's because the chrome stick is 11/16" tubing. Mandrels for 5/8" and 3/4" are more common.
One idea I had was to get some pieces of sheet Al, then wrap the chrome tube to make it up to 3/4" so that common bender size can be used.
If you pop out the rivets, here's an upgrade you can do:

Image

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:07 am

Bruce2 wrote:Finding someone to bend it will be a bit more difficult than you think. That's because the chrome stick is 11/16" tubing. Mandrels for 5/8" and 3/4" are more common.
One idea I had was to get some pieces of sheet Al, then wrap the chrome tube to make it up to 3/4" so that common bender size can be used.
If you pop out the rivets, here's an upgrade you can do:

Image
Thanks Bruce. The rivets have been removed and everything that can be taken apart has been done so (I wish I could post the pictures but Photobucket just isn't working for me much anymore. Ah, the good ol' days where you could post straight from your computer).

I have a few friends that are "still in the know" about who, what, where and when" for working metal around here but they are now approaching retirement age too. I agree I will have to make some kind of protective covering for the chrome but since the necessary bend angle is so small I am hoping that the chrome will stretch a bit where needed and compress in the same areas too, just enough to not crack which can lead to rusting. I still have the option of painting but sure would like not to. I will have to make some calls or visits to them in the next few days.

I did measure the outside diameter and got 0.695/.070 (depending on how the bending was done and where you took the measurement as there is some distortion in the bend area if you measure from the sides) which would be the 11/16" (0.6875) you said plus the chrome covering. The embedded rod itself is 1/2 inch round stock. If you pull up the trigger sleeve a short distance you can see where the cover over the rod ends as the trigger sleeve sits on it.

Where does the part you designed go, on top and under the nylon pieces to protect them?

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:35 am

Image

This is an end view of the shift shaft. This shows the machined track and the shift trigger riding in the shaft plus the end of the wire bend over the trigger end.

Image

A closer view of the threaded end of the gear shift handle.

Image

The end of the shaft where the spring and two washers I was talking about are.

Image

This shows the washer having been pulled up by the trigger on the handle. The washer at the bottom pulls up on the gate allowing reverse to be accessed.

Image

This shows the reverse lock-out gate and the return spring that closes it when the trigger is released.

Image

This shows the dimpled part of the body of the shifter that one end of the spring fits in.

Image

You can barely see it but on the upper washer you can see the extra pooch out for the end of the spring that controls left and right movement of the stick to fit into.

Image

The whole assembly.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:11 am

Sorry about the reverse order of the pictures but I was so surprised when the pictures suddenly down loaded onto Photobucket and I was then able to get the URLs for them I didn't bother to reorder them for fear of all of a sudden losing the ability of this much.

To pull the shifter arm a part I think you have to pull that lower washer up (compress the spring) in order to get the wire off the washer then the handle can be pulled apart to change the two nylon bushings. I'll have to do it at some later time but right now there isn't time for me to order them then get them delivered.

I hope this helps someone.

Lee

Bruce2
Posts: 6776
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:01 am

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Bruce2 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:57 pm

Don't worry about ordering the nylon bushings and getting them in, they aren't available new anywhere. EMPI makes them, but does not offer them outside of their shifter.

That steel plate I designed is to fix a design flaw. When you took yours apart, you probably noticed the rivets weren't clamping the nylon bushings very tight. They may have been tight when new, but the nylon deforms under the small contact area of the rivets until the whole thing is loose. By putting my plate on top of the top bushing, you can install screws and nuts and really tighten them down. The clamping area of my plate is large enough that it doesn't deform the nylon, so it all stays tight.

The chrome will crack.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13210
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Hurst/EMPI shifter

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:21 pm

Bruce2 wrote:Don't worry about ordering the nylon bushings and getting them in, they aren't available new anywhere. EMPI makes them, but does not offer them outside of their shifter.

That steel plate I designed is to fix a design flaw. When you took yours apart, you probably noticed the rivets weren't clamping the nylon bushings very tight. They may have been tight when new, but the nylon deforms under the small contact area of the rivets until the whole thing is loose. By putting my plate on top of the top bushing, you can install screws and nuts and really tighten them down. The clamping area of my plate is large enough that it doesn't deform the nylon, so it all stays tight.

The chrome will crack.
I agree about the need for your plate. Exactually what you said about the nylon deforming and wearing fast is what i found. Are you selling them or what?

Yeah... the chrome should crnot.especislly if it is the cheap jobss like jobs i am sure it will be but sometimes, with the real good jobs, i keep my fingers crossed as i have seen it not.

Post Reply