1500 swing axle box mods

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by Marc » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:49 pm

I didn't see where you'd mentioned your axle length. Rumor has it that the "short/short-spline" `66 shafts are the strongest of that kind; `67 (long/short-spline) and `68 Bug/Type III/`67-up 'Ghia (long/long-spline) are all less prone to breakage than the pre`66 Bug.
So far as axles & need for SuperDiff are concerned, if you aren't ever going to do any wheelie/smoke-show attempts (and you are running street tires) you aren't likely to break them. As the old saw goes, some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox - like my son ;) but assuming you'll be respecting the limitations of the equipment you could be fine for a long time with an "inferior" setup.
With the 4.125 R&P the only way you can attain "Freeway Flyer" status is to use a Bus .82 4th. There are even taller aftermarket gears available, up to .7, but you'd have a HUGE spread from 3rd - it'd be like driving a 5-speed with no 4th, can't recommend it.
HD sideplate is a good idea on the ring-gear side but IMO it's pointless at the level under discussion to fit two.

Just in case you're still considering a spool (or welded-up diff), those are both fine for race use and eliminate the possibility of scattering a differential - but for everyday street use FORGET ABOUT IT! Can turn a routine low-speed turn into a white-knuckle experience.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by gkeeton » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:08 am

Bare minimum requirements would be a HD sidecover on the ring gear side, and welded hubs on 3rd/4th. After that, it's up to you what you want to spend. Your current trans most likeley has an .89 4th, but even if it had a .93, changing to an .82 is only going to drop maybe 500 rpms off your cruising speed. The least expensive stock gearing combo would be a 1.22 3rd, and an .82 4th. In 11+ years of building transaxles, I have yet to meet someone with enough restraint to not break a drive line set up that they knew was not built to handle the power of the performance engine it was used with. It's not much fun driving something when you constantly have in the back of your mind, "is it going to stay together"?

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:50 pm

Hey thanks guys, when It comes to v w air cooled boxes I no nothing.
The axles are stock short/short spline. I changed them from long ones to get the tyres under the wings.
I think ill go with the side plate, the welded hubs and see if I can change the 3rd and 4th. when I get the box stripped do the gears have the i.d number etched into them.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by Marc » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:18 pm

GARRICK.CLARK wrote:..The axles are stock short/short spline
Hopefully you observed which side they were used on in their former life (reversing rotation direction contributes to breakage). If unknown it can be discerned by the wear patterns on the "paddles".
GARRICK.CLARK wrote:do the gears have the i.d number etched into them.
No, but it's a simple matter to count the teeth and calculate the ratio yourself.

After April 1970, 3rd & 4th went from "coarse" to "fine" teeth...IMO you'd be better off with the coarse for strength.

Early 3rd was 29:23, the fine-tooth version is 63:50. Both are 1.26:1 (or as close as makes no difference)
Early 4th was 24:27 (.89), the fine-tooth set is 53:60 (.88) .... that's taller by 1.0063, almost insignificant (about the change you'd have from ~1/8" taller rear tires).

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:40 pm

Right my dilemma is this.
a RANCHO PRO STREET
3.875
3.80
2.06
1.26
0.82
welded 3rd and 4th.
super diff
side plate
Hardened keys
Its $2518

Is this a good deal
or would you spend this or similar on my own box.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by Marc » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:56 pm

How much more would it be with a 3.78 First? They're much stronger than the 3.80 (according to Berg, over twice as strong - dunno how he came up with that assessment). Looks to me like the 3.78 would be a weak link in an otherwise sturdy box.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by gkeeton » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:11 pm

Is that as ordered, or simply someone local selling that specific trans? Is this just the trans., or is it including axles? Not sure what shipping, and the exchange rate would be, but Rancho lists their basic Pro-Street for $995 on their site. This would be raised by $250 for the core, probably another $250 for a 3.88 r&p, and possibly $150-$250 for an .82 4th. If you are ordering it directly from Rancho, I too would spend a little more for the 3.78 1st. Other than that, it would be a pretty nice setup.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:12 am

Yes . The above price is with the 3.88 and the 0.82.
Only thing it doesn't have is the 3.78 1st

gkeeton
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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by gkeeton » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:33 am

Yes, to which questions?

The unfortunate reality is that very few rebuilders list the ratios of the transaxles. A standard rebuild 99% of the time has a 3.80 1st, and a 4.12 r&p. Even though 3.78 1st gears, and 3.88 r&p's came from VW stock in certain transaxles, their high demand for performance use is almost always an extra charge.
Like I posted, that trans by itself only seems to be about $1800-$1900 without shipping if bought in the U.S. Would you have another $600 in shipping, and duties, etc. to get it to you? If it has HD axles/tubes already on it, then that's not too bad of a deal. If its just the trans someone has available locally, you may not have much more, if at all, invested in getting an almost identical trans with a 3.78 1st directly from Rancho. If you are spending that kind of money, I personally would want a 3.78 1st.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:28 am

Thanks gkeeton.

The box is just the box , no axles,
And is bought locally. 200 mile round trip. unused. Guy bought a berg 5 instead.
The 3.88 was extra money along with the 0.82 bringing the total to $2518.
So my thinking is this box with the wrong 3rd and 4th gear is too much money.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by gkeeton » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:02 pm

I wouldn't necessarily say the 3rd/4th are wrong in that trans, but the 3.80 1st is the deal breaker for me. That has a common 1.26 Type 1 stock VW 3rd along with a stock .82 Type 2 VW 4th. The most common Type 1 3rd's are going be a 1.26 ratio, followed by a lesser common, lower ratio 1.32. The Type 1 4th's are going to be .89, and .93. The early Type 2's had a 1.21 3rd, and .82 4th's, but are much less common than the Type 1 gear sets. A 1.26/82, or 1.21/.82 combo would work nice. The 1.21, and .82 are still factory VW gears, and will most likely be an additional charge since they are not very common, but should still be less expensive than the aftermarket Weddle gear sets. Send an email to Rancho, or some of the other popular U.S. builders with your designated use, and see what they give you as a quote. The above trans with a 3.78 1st, and the 1.26, or 1.21 3rd/.82 4th would be good for your combo. The $2518 may be a good price to get it to where you guys are at, but it just seems a little high to me. Price out the 3.78 1st, r&p, gear sets, diff, and side cover, and get a quote locally to see what it would take to fit them to your current trans.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:48 pm

Hi Guys . I lasted posted about my gearbox over a year ago. I haven't done anything to my gearbox yet. I think it will over this winter when I do it. I have just acquired an early 002 box. The one without the ears on the bell housing. Does this box have a better 3rd and 4th gear than the ones in my standard type 1 1500 box. Is there any other 002 internals that I can use in my 1500 box to make it stronger.
I'll get the code number off the 002 box tomorrow.
Thanks.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by gkeeton » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:54 pm

If you look on the edge of the case section that the nose cone bolts to, there will be an 002 301 173, or an 002 301 173A. The section without the A would have a keyed mainshaft with a 3.80 1st, and the section with the A would have a splined mainshaft with either a 3.80, or 3.78. Either way, it will have a thicker coarse tooth 1.26 3rd, and an .82 4th. If it is the earlier version, the only thing you may be getting out of it would be the .82 4th. If it's the later version, you could use the mainshaft if it was a 3.78 1st, and 3rd/4th.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:49 am

Hi gkeeton.
Just had a look at the number and it does have an A on the end of the number.
So if I take both boxes to the local gearbox guy if I'm understanding it correctly I'll ask him to
Fit the 3rd and 4th from the bus box to the bug box.( UPGRADE)
Fit the main shaft and 1st from the bus box to the bug box.( UPGRADE)
How would I or the box builder no if its a 3.78 1st.
I would also need to give the builder an ally side plate to fit.
Does the bus 3rd and 4th need welding.(3rd and 4th hub welding) ?
I will keep the 4.12 ring and pinion as I like the acceleration
with the .82 4th in place this should help a little with the motorway driving a bit.
Is there any other mods I can get the builder to do while its in bits.
Maybe Fit a super diff
Much appreciated.

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Re: 1500 swing axle box mods

Post by Pablo2 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:22 am

I kinda avoided this thread because of the unrealistic budget, but I have to ask ..
You say this is for "street only", but you speak of "preloaded starts" ?
Why are you unable to go 70 mph with a 4.12 R&P and stock gearing?

Turbo street cars normally need all the cooling they can get. Going too high on gearing usually leads to overheating, unless further preventative mods to the engine are performed.

One way to tell if you have a 3.78 is by doing the math with tooth counts. The result of 3.80 1st gear and drag race starts is usually a broken 1st gear, so a 9-tooth pinion is preferable to a 10-tooth.

.. and yes, GT LSDs are still available ;^)
aka Pablo, gears, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86

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