Transaxle suggestions for a street legal rail?

[GoMopar440]

I'm planning to try swapping some T3 parts I have for a different trans for my rail. However I'm still not set on which trans I'd like to go with yet. The rail currently has 31x9.5-15 tires out back, a mostly stock 1600 DP engine and a Type 1 transaxle. The intended use for the rail will be about 80% on road and 20% light trail use. Here's a pic of my rail in it's current configuration.


So far my top three options are (in approximate order of cost):
1) 002 trans with Bus CV's
2) 091 trans with 930 CV's
3) Rhino case w/a 4 spider superdiff, T1 internals (from the T3 trans) and Bus or 930 CV's

Notes:
- I don't want the engine to be screaming at highway speeds and have it reduce the engine's life span. I realize that the engine needs to turn fast enough to keep the engine cool, but the shrouds around the engine are already trimmed for use on an open rail.
- I want to be able to get moving and accelerate without having to slip the clutch. Right now I need to slip the clutch in the bug trans when starting from a complete stop.
- The engine will be staying mostly as is for a while, but dual carbs are in the plans for it. I'll either use dual 34PICT-3's or the dual carb setup off of the T3 engine. The 4 into 1 exhaust that came with the rail will be going back on after I get a quiet pack style muffler for it. Unless I have problems with the pistons or cylinders, the displacement will stay at 1600. In the event I ever need to replace the P/C's, I'll most likely go with a 1776 so I don't have to get the case machined.
- The 002 would probably be the cheapest upgrade, but the Rhino would require the least amount of fabrication to install. If I swap the trans in when I build the new frame next year, the fabrication issue becomes a moot point.
- I'm not sure about parts availability for future repairs. I'd like to have the trans with decent parts availability so I don't end up having to scour the ends of the earth if/when I need to fix it.
- I'm pretty much on a limited/fixed income so I have to keep the costs down as much as possible. If I start getting unnecessarily extravagant with my parts purchases it would jeopardize the whole project. Moderation is the key here out of necessity. Using the T3 parts for bartering material helps me offset the cost of buying it in the first place.

Q1) Can anyone here give me some tips on which trans might be the best fit for these parameters?
Q2) Why would you choose one transaxle over the others?
Q3) Are there any other options available that I haven't mentioned?

BTW: Here's a link to my rail (re)build thread if anyone is interested: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=629493
I've posted a bunch of questions in the thread over there with only occasional replies. I figured I'd post here as well to see if I might get more feedback.

PS: I've been a lurker on this site for so long I didn't realize I haven't posted here before. So... Hi!

[Pablo2]

5.43 (7:38) R&P with stock gearing in either 002 or 091 configuration is what I would use with those 31" tires. Type I is a marginal trans for off-road.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I am not a transaxle person but I might be able to give you some insight on some things. It looks like you have a short wheel base rail and I have a short wheel base glass buggy. You should be a bit lighter weight than I am but probably close enough to have some similar things.

I started out with a stock 1300 which was OK for the street but fell down off -road (I run on the sand which does have more drag and is harder on the clutch). I then pulled the 1300 and replaced it with a stock used 1600 DP engine which eventually spun a bearing. I then built a 1776 based on a DP and added a regrind cam, dual 40 Dels, a light flywheel (I do not recommend doing this but I have had light flywheel engines for many years) and a 1 1/2 sump.

I ran 30" paddle tires on 15 X 15 steel rims but they work better on 15 X 12 AL rims but for off-road (not sand) steel is probably a better/stronger choice. I am currently running Desert Tracs (not street legal) on the same15 X 12 AL rims. I think you are going to find that tire choice is going to make a lot more of a difference than one might think. A short wheel base can have a larger effect on so many things that it will probably be more of a learing thing.

I am not sure of the rear spring/shock setup you are running; e.g., is it a single spring or a double spring stack? Pictures of the rear might help (I will go back and look more at your TOS [The Other Site which is how you might see how [tongue in cheek] "the samba" is referred to here. No offence to that site is implied] build page as I only got to look at the first page of 9 ).

I ended up cooking the flywheel side of the clutch disc so I went to an expert in VW engines and running gear, especially on the sand, and he recommended a stock PP but use a 4-puck disc. I do not recommend either a 4-puck or 6 puck on the street as you should not slip/finesse either of them. You will destroy either the PP or the flywheel doing this. Instead I would recommend something like a Cush-lock or something similar matched up to a stock PP. I do not recommend a stronger PP unless you build a very strong running engine and I mean VERY STRONG. Remember, the more HD the PP gets the harder it is on the T/O forks and the transaxle case.

As far as the stock transaxle I ran one on the sand for years. The tall tires and the friction of the sand were hard on the clutch components but I did OK with the transaxle. With the taller tires I run mostly in 1 and 2 but do get into 3 and 4 occasionally. I switched over to an 091 for strength but I do not particularly like the gearing in it; the stock gearing in the type I transaxle seems to work better for what I do. The gearing in the type I I liked a bit better. I would also think about going to a 4-puck diff of some sort especially if you run turning/cutting brakes. As an off-hand note: off-road (sand) as little as 2#s of tire pressure (they type of tire I am currently running) made a lot of difference; 3#s was too much!

The starter for an 091 is expensive, around $200 the last time I bought one.

The gearing in the type I or the 091 can be changed but that is not going to be cheap for either. I think the 091 is probably going to be more costly. The 3-rib or 5-rib would most likely be a better choice and again, gearing is the key. No experience with the pyramid case but the words I have heard was that it wasn't worth it if a type II "box" was available. Bruce 2 or Henryhoehandle (et al) would know more about this than I do but I think the detachable ballhousing might interchange onto the 091 (I forget if this is true or not so it is more of a place holeer than a known fact).

Good to hear you are getting rid of the twin Bazooka exhaust. You lose some power with them. I would recommend something like a Tri-mil 4-into-one exhaust system with a quiet pack or an 18 inch Super Trapp with its spark arresters for off-road.

For what its worth.

Lee

Edited due to writhing it after a 400 mile drive.

[GoMopar440]

Lots of good ideas and info here. I'll try to fill in any pertinent info as I go to help bring everyone up to speed on the status of this project.

5.43 (7:38) R&P with stock gearing in either 002 or 091 configuration is what I would use with those 31" tires. Type I is a marginal trans for off-road.

My use is going to be 80% on road and 20% off. The typical legal highway speeds around most of the roads around here are between 70 and 80 MPH. I don't need, or want, to go any faster than that. I just don't want to get rear ended for not being able to keep up with the flow of traffic. I know you can't have both top end and low end in this situation and I'm willing to sacrifice some low end grunt to keep from wringing out my engine on the highway.

It looks like you have a short wheel base rail and I have a short wheel base glass buggy. You should be a bit lighter weight than I am but probably close enough to have some similar things.

You are most likely correct, but I've never weighed it or measured the wheelbase. That would be good info to have though so I'll make sure to measure the wheelbase next time I'm outside and jot it down. Checking the weight will have to wait until I can drive it to a scale somewhere though.

I started out with a stock 1300 which was OK for the street but fell down off -road (I run on the sand which does have more drag and is harder on the clutch).

I live at about 5K (elevation) in the mountains here in Montana so there's not much sand nearby. Lots of twisty mountian roads though. The offroading I'll be most likely to see will be dirt roads and some marked ATV trails. I just had my second back surgery last year so I'm not into jumping or going balls out off road (anymore). On a dirt bike, 10 or more years ago, would have been a whole different story though.

I then pulled the 1300 and replaced it with a stock used 1600 DP engine which eventually spun a bearing. I then built a 1776 based on a DP and added a regrind cam, dual 40 Dels, a light flywheel (I do not recommend doing this but I have had light flywheel engines for many years) and a 1 1/2 sump.

Sounds like a decent recipe, except for the lightened flywheel. I'd rather keep the flywheel mass to help keep the engine alive on slow speed technical trails. If I wanted to drag race (not happening), a light flywheel would be the ticket. If money was no object, I'd love to build a 82x94 engine with a turbo and a GB or Mendy 5 speed. *checks wallet and sighs* Looks like I'll be keeping mine a fairly stock 1600 DP for a while longer. A 1776 would be the ticket if I needed to replace the pistons and cylinders. I'm working (slowly) on trying to make a set of duals out of a couple of spare Solex 34PICT-3's and some Empi intakes and dual linkage. That's on standby until I get the rail up and running again though. I also have the duals on my Type 3 parts car as another option if that doesn't work out. I In the event this engine ever self destructs, I have a spare from a type 3 in my parts car. If that one konks out, I'll be looking at doing either a Corvair or Suby conversion. Hopefully I don't have to explore those options anytime soon though. I do have a complete rebuilt Corvair engine sitting under the bench in my shop, but that is standing by for whenever I get around to building an experimental airplane (Rand Robinson KR1, 2 or 2S most likely). Suby's are fairly common around here so that would be another option if it came down to it.

I ran 30" paddle tires on 15 X 15 steel rims but they work better on 15 X 12 AL rims but for off-road (not sand) steel is probably a better/stronger choice. I am currently running Desert Tracs (not street legal) on the same15 X 12 AL rims. I think you are going to find that tire choice is going to make a lot more of a difference than one might think. A short wheel base can have a larger effect on so many things that it will probably be more of a learing thing.

I'm sticking with the tire and wheel setup I have now for the foreseeable future. The rears are a 31x9.5-15 on a 15x7" or 8" eight spoke wagon wheel. The fronts are 7.00-15's on 15x5.5's, also on eight spoke wagon wheels. Both front and rear tires are mud terrain type treads. The rears are radial but the fronts are bias ply. It has standard 4x130 bolt patterns on both the front and rear. The front axle is a standard width, unmodified BJ beam that is welded to the frame. The front axle is bent on the pass side though, so a new frame is in the plans for next year. The rear is stock IRS with a beef up kit welded onto the stock bug arms. The frame I want to build is a Bee Line Rat Pack two seater. http://beelinechassis.net/1packrat98.html

I am not sure of the rear spring/shock setup you are running; e.g., is it a single spring or a double spring stack? Pictures of the rear might help (I will go back and look more at your TOS [The Other Site which is how you might see how [tongue in cheek] "the samba" is referred to here. No offence to that site is implied] build page as I only got to look at the first page of 9 ).

The rear shock is about twice as long as the stock shock and goes to about head level (while seated) on the frame. The original rear top shock mount horns were cut off before I got it. It still has the stock rear torsion setup, with the long torsion bars judging by the length of the torsion caps. That is one reason I'm wanting to stay with 31's out back. A 32 MIGHT fit, but it's an odd size tire and usually more expensive as a result. 33's would most definitely hit the torsion caps. No coil overs on it yet, but I would put them on in a heartbeat if I could afford them. The shocks are painted black over the stickers and all, but I believe they are Explorer Pro Comp ES9000 shocks at both ends IIRC. The build thread over at TOS is now on pg 10 after today's latest post.
Here's a better view of my rear shock setup.

I ended up cooking the flywheel side of the clutch disc so I went to an expert in VW engines and running gear, especially on the sand, and he recommended a stock PP but use a 4-puck disc. I do not recommend either a 4-puck or 6 puck on the street as you should not slip/finesse either of them. You will destroy either the PP or the flywheel doing this. Instead I would recommend something like a Cush-lock or something similar matched up to a stock PP. I do not recommend a stronger PP unless you build a very strong running engine and I mean VERY STRONG. Remember, the more HD the PP gets the harder it is on the T/O forks and the transaxle case.

I got a few tips from Richard on TOS about this issue and there could be a number of possible causes. I had a broken rear top shock bolt I discovered the last time I took it out for a spin. I fixed that already but haven't had it back together to be able to test if that was the cause or not. Another possibility is my pedals aren't set in a very comfortable position and are difficult to manage as a result. I put the pedals where I did back before I raised the steering wheel, so now I have room to move them somewhere more ergonomic. The clutch engagement feels like I may have some hot/hard spots on the PP or flywheel. I won't know for until I pull the engine.

As far as the stock transaxle I ran one on the sand for years. The tall tires and the friction of the sand were hard on the clutch components but I did OK with the transaxle. With the taller tires I run mostly in 1 and 2 but do get into 3 and 4 occasionally. I switched over to an 091 for strength but I do not particularly like the gearing in it; the stock gearing in the type I transaxle seems to work better for what I do. The gearing in the type I I liked a bit better. I would also think about going to a 4-puck diff of some sort especially if you run turning/cutting brakes. As an off-hand note: off-road (sand) as little as 2#s of tire pressure (they type of tire I am currently running) made a lot of difference; 3#s was too much!

I'll probably be driving on blacktop or hard pack dirt most of the time so I'm leaning towards a setup that will survive having a lot of traction. The gearing in the bug street trans seems to fit closer to my needs than either of the bus options. I like the durability of the bus transaxles, and believe that's their strongest selling point. The bus R/P ratios are what have me leaning towards the bug or Rhino transaxles tight now though, with the Rhino looking like my best option. I plan on putting a 4 spider super diff in whichever trans I end up with. I've been researching the oiling mods for the super diff and would have no problem duplicating that here on my Bridgeport mill. I have a set of cutting brakes but them off the rail until I can get the new brakes working. I pulled all the old bug drums and am now using a complete Type 3 front disk, rear drum and dual circuit MC system. I'm still working on mounting the MC to the aftermarket pedal assembly and I have a complete set of hard lines coming in the mail. The front rubber lines are now new and the rear rubber lines are in the mail with the hard line kit. The CNC cutting brakes still need to be rebuilt before I can put them back into the rail.
Here's my solution to adapting a Type 3 MC to aftermarket pedals.

The starter for an 091 is expensive, around $200 the last time I bought one.

Ouch! Sounds like another good reason to go the Bug/Rhino route.

The gearing in the type I or the 091 can be changed but that is not going to be cheap for either. I think the 091 is probably going to be more costly. The 3-rib or 5-rib would most likely be a better choice and again, gearing is the key. No experience with the pyramid case but the words I have heard was that it wasn't worth it if a type II "box" was available. Bruce 2 or Henryhoehandle (et al) would know more about this than I do but I think the detachable ballhousing might interchange onto the 091 (I forget if this is true or not so it is more of a place holeer than a known fact).

The 1-4 gearing isn't as much of a concern for me as the R/P ratio. From what I've been told on TOS, those bus trannys will have my engine screaming with 31's at the highway speeds I'm shooting for. That's my main concern with the trans swap. I don't want to kill my engine, or reduce it's normal life span, just by trying to keep up with traffic. Cost is another big factor here as well. The bus parts all seem to demand a premium vs the Bug parts. If I can get a decent (Rhino) case and stuff my bug or type 3 internals into it I'd be way ahead. Not to mention the fabrication would be minimized since the Rhino case AFAIK is pretty much a bolt in swap for the bug trans. BTW: What's a "Pyramid case"? Is that another name for a Rhino case or is it something else? While I'm not new to wrenching on cars, trucks and bikes, I'm still a relative newbie as far as VW's go. The rail is my first, and the Type 3 parts car is my second VW of any kind.
This is the style of exhaust I'll be putting on the rail when I ditch the dual cannons.
This...

or this.

Good to hear you are getting rid of the twin Bazooka exhaust. You lose some power with them. I would recommend something like a Tri-mil 4-into-one exhaust system with a quiet pack or an 18 inch Super Trapp with its spark arresters for off-road.

This rail came with an Empi 4-1 header on it, but I took it off due to a severely bent stinger, lots of rust and a lack of any kind of baffle. I bought some dual cannon headers with mufflers in them to get me through the state inspection for the VIN. Once that's over the 4-1 header will be going back on, but only after I get a quiet pack type muffler for it. I've lost enough hearing already from working around jets (A6-E Intruders) and in large machine shops (machinist AKA: MR in the Navy) for a number of years so I'm trying to keep as much of what I have left as possible. Even if I have to trade off some horse power to do so.

Sorry about the novel sized post. It's still shorter than reposting everything from TOS over here.

EDIT to add some pics for clarification.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Lets try this again.

You are probably going to want to put hook and pin stops on your beam. K&L beams have stops which are usually removed to allow more suspension travel. The kits for longer shock usuallly have stops built into them,

Ball-joint beams are limited/controlled by the shocks hence you can damage the shocks by too much hang or worse hard compression. Since I can't post pictures until after Wednesday, it you can find it I did a beam build that also has some errors in it which I explained before I stopped it.

In the beam build I also put a stiffener on the shock tower which should be added. You can build a "Strongback" (the stiffener) using a length of flat stock or, I think better, is to use a length of angle iron that when laid on the shock tower forms a triangle. Close the top with a triangular piece cut to shape.

If you don't have stops or limiters for the rear I would advise that being done.

There is an old saw that the front end travel should be anywhere 60% to 90% of the rear travel. Adds balance to the capabilities of your rail off-road. A BJ beam, so I have been told can be anywhere between 6" and 10"s of travel depending on what is used/done. There are BJs that have been modified for certain class racing that limits what is done allowing for more travel.

In the rear you are limited by max CV angle. Blindchickenracing, on their web site has a "how to" that gives a lot of information on CV angle, half-shaft length and other things.

Lee

(sorry about the post )

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Previous post updated.

Lee

[GoMopar440]

The infrequent and mild off-road use this rail will most likely see will make the hook and pin mod almost unnecessary. The shocks on the front of the rail now are almost too fat to fit the front trailing arms. I may swap them out for some thinner bodied KYBs later on. The front BJ axle will be remaining at the stock travel settings for quite a while. If I notice any need for it after I get this rail on the road, I will add limit straps and bump stops at that time. Rear limit straps will be done on an as needed basis as well. Keeping the suspension travel stock is fine for me given the mild off-roading I'll be likely to see. The only other thing I would like to do is add either Thing or aftermarket lift spindles up front to get the bottom of the rail to sit parallel with the ground. The front 7.00-15 tires that replaced the stock 165-15 bug tires have already raised it up some, but the lift spindles would set the rail right where I want it.

The shock tower stiffener is a good idea. However, I will have to make one that won't interfere with opening the hood I built on the front of the rail.



For the inner and outer CV's, I'd like to switch to Type 2's mostly for the strength. The extra angular tolerance from the bus parts will just be a bonus. I've read most of the tech articles on the BCR website. Lots of useful tips and tricks in there.

BTW: Don't sweat the lack of pics. You did a fine job of getting your point across without them.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

One of the reasons for the hooks is that the lower ballpoint is pressed in from the upper side of the trailing arm allowing it to be pulled out offloading. Does this happen often... Probably not not when it does it is usually at the wrong time.

The use of a short leg angle iron is going to give you more strength than equivalent plate stood on end especially if it is shortened for hood clearance.

Lee

[GoMopar440]

I understand it's the lower BJ that pulls out since the weight on the wheels tries to separate itself from the BJ below it or pull it right out of the arm. The spindle pushes up against the upper BJ and the torsion leaves push the upper arm down onto the spindle, holding itself together. The lower trailing arm presses down and away from the spindle. The only thing holding it together is the lower BJ itself. That's one of the main reasons I want to go with the Thing spindles as it puts the lower arm on the opposite side of the spindle so it works like the upper arm. Another temp fix to keep the BJ in the arms is to put a tack weld or two on them to hold them in place. There's the chance of cooking the grease out of the BJ's among other possible problems with that method that make it something I don't want to do. Tacking them in there also makes swapping the BJ's out to replace them a lot more difficult.

Another reason for not going with a long travel setup is I haven't been able to find any longer trailing arms for the BJ axle. A longer set of BJ arms would give me some of the turning radius back that I lost when I went to the taller 7.00-15 tires. I also don't want to deal with the added maintenance required with King or Link front ends. From what I've read, BJ axles are supposed to have better on road handling manners than either of the older styles. That's another big point for the BJ setup vs the King or Link setups in my case. I've personally never driven anything with a King or Link axle so this is based on what I've read here and elsewhere (TOS, BCR, WoodsBuggy, etc) on the web.

I still have some old bed frame rails I've been cutting up for various projects. I should have enough of it left to be able to make a couple of reinforcements for the shock towers. If I keep them towards the front edges I should be able to avoid interference with the hood. Those bed rails are extremely tough to drill so they are better suited to making reinforcement pieces than something I have to put holes in.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I used the bed rails myself. Not the best quality of material but much better than some options. More than adequate i think.

I have Thing spindles and trailing arms myself but I am not putting them on my buggy unless it doesn't sell.

The BJ suspension is supposed to be smoother but if you want increased travel you are limited. I haven't heard of longer steering arms myself, only the spud being moved down for increased road height. If you can find them for a reasonable price, the Thing spindles are a better design. (This might have some information you could use. At the end I documented a reading mistake on the instructions for the adjusters....and some advice on how not to do it! viewtopic.php?f=28&t=136514&hilit=bj+beam+build)

Lee

[Dougy Dee]

The 5.42 R&P with .82 4th and 31" tall tires would be at 3000 RPM at 62 mph. The .89 4th would be about 57.5 mph.
You could have either 4th with your core.

Your rail will have the aerodynamics of brick so rpm's for cooling and power should be in this range.

[GoMopar440]

I've never had any luck trying to figure out those gearing calculators online. If I had an open trans axle in front of me it would probably make better sense to me. Can you tell me what engine RPM's are ideal for maintaining proper cooling of an ACVW at speed?

The outer edges of the engine tin are trimmed for use in an open rail, but all the required pieces are there underneath. There are no sleds under the push rod tubes though since I'm not running heater boxes. I'm missing some of the doghouse tin, but that will be replaced, including the Hoover bit, before I take it out on the road again. The speed limit on I-90, which is the biggest highway around here, is 80 MPH. I would like to hit the optimum cooling RPMs somewhere between 70 to 80 MPH. I wouldn't want to have to go slower than 75 to be able to keep it cool. I just don't trust the other drivers around me not to be driving while texting, putting on make up or eating a bowl of soup. Those are just some of the things I've seen drivers around here doing while they're supposed to be actually DRIVING.

I'll be spending time getting the timing, valve lash, carb jetting, oil type/weight and oil capacity(extra sump maybe) all set up properly before taking this rail out on the highway. All of those things can have a BIG impact on cooling, especially in an ACVW from what I've read.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Doug's comment was great. The tubes will have some effect but the seats and the people should have a greater affect. Think about sitting in a chair in 75 mph wind storm!

Lee

[GoMopar440]

I've already made a template for a laminated safety glass windshield, I just need to put away about $80 to get it made. I'm using the tube frame gasket from Acme/Berrien and some windshield glue to install it once I have it made. The windshield frame has a decent amount of layback to it, but if I had to guess, not enough to make a huge improvement to the aerodynamics. At least the windshield will keep most of the bugs out of my teeth. Details of the windshield template are about halfway down on page 6 of the build thread over on TOS. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... &start=100

[Ol'fogasaurus]

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/5287499341.html

For what is worth this is for sale locally. Street driven rails were legal at one time here then no., now maybe. This one claims to be street legal.

A windshield won't stop the air flow below it. A firewall is a brick, body panels should be better. Anyway, here is something to think about.

Lee