Leaking Transmission

[Canuck70Ghia]

Hey Folks, Need some help . . .

I am tearing down my IRS during a rebuild of a Ghia, early 70 vintage. I have some major body issues and am underneath now with engine out. Transaxle looks a mess, like an inch of sludge all over and some very slick looking goo all around. CV's are off as is the diagonal arms and spring plates so I figure i should pull the tranny and clean it up. Also looking to refresh it.

I read that you can replace the outer seals that lead to the CV's and the front seals on the cone. I had heard that that is a good midlife leak stopper procedure. As far as I know there is nothing wrong with the tranny (been at least 30 years since it was run) amd am reticent to invest unless I really have too. I can see there has been some major leakage, not sure where but it looks like it is centered around the axle connections.

I am looking for some part numbers and part descriptions. I cannot see these seals listed anywhere or kits that come with just basics. I am certainly up for a rebuild if required but I see no reason to do that at this point.

Could someone steer me to a procedure which would refresh the transaxle without a major teardown? Part numbers and part distributors would be great. Air Cooled.Net has always been good to me but I cannot see the seals listed anywhere.


Thanks

[Marc]

http://www.longenterprises.com/parts_li ... _2700.html

Final drive seals are 113 301 189F. Check that there isn't excess radial play in the differential carrier bearings, not much point in replacing the seals and not the bearing(s) if sloppy.

The "dust cap" in the center of the final drive flanges is 113 517 289A or you can use the waterpumper 020 409 289A. They can be removed without major damage by tapping a screwdriver tip in at the perimeter and prying them out, then reused with a coating of RTV around the outside - so you don't really need new ones unless they're ruptured in the center.
The spring clips which retain the drive flanges can usually be retensioned and recycled too, but if you want to get new ones they're 113 517 279.

Shift housing ("nose cone") gasket for the 2-bolt mount housing/early mainshaft bearing is 211 301 215.

Input shaft seal is 113 311 113A.

That's about all you can replace without major surgery, other than the oil seal on the shift lever, 001 301 227 (and perhaps its bushing, 001 301 209) and the big O-rings on the sidecovers (113 301 185A)...do they appear to be leaking?

If you've got a leak at the gasket between the gear carrier housing and the big housing, it can't be renewed without getting into some serious stuff - but you can achieve just enough separation to wrap a length of waxed dental floss around the outside of the studs (ends at the top) which can be an effective "fix" if the gasket doesn't disintegrate in the process - don't go there unless the leak is significant.

[Canuck70Ghia]

Well I pulled the tranny and here are some pictures.

I think I was right in that both seals on the drive need to be replaced and the front gasket. Further opinions welcome.

The biggest question would be do I fix the leaks and clean it up or get a rebuilt one?

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/langla ... /Transaxle

[Marc]

What engine do you plan to put behind it? If it was functioning acceptably 30 years ago that probably hasn't changed, it should be worth the small investment of time & money to fix the leaks and change the fluid.

As far as the leaks and "grunginess" go, it honestly doesn't look all that bad for its age. If the radial play of the CV flanges isn't excessive, it should be worth replacing the final drive seals, input shaft seal, and shifthousing gasket. The sidecovers might be leaking a little (the RH one anyway) - it's hard to tell with the F.D. seal leakage - but probably not enough to warrant pulling them just to replace the O-rings.

DO be careful about what lubricant you put in, the synchro rings in the ACVW transaxle can be damaged by the wrong lube. The current, common GL-5 lubricants which meet the MT-1 spec are definitely better than any old stock which does not, but you can do better.

Never use any lube, synthetic or not, that doesn't meet the The American Gear Manufacturers Association (AGMA) rating D-130. Differentials (like the final drive portion of an automatic transmission or the third member of a conventional drivetrain) do not contain synchro rings made of non-ferrous materials so they can use lubricants with a higher amount of extreme-pressure additives; problem is that when these additives break down into sulfurics which corrode the brass in the old transmissions' synchros. Generally this means you need to avoid GL-5 lubes and look for GL-4, but it's getting harder and harder to find. API GL-5/MT-1 is supposedly safe to use in old transmissions if GL-4 is unavailable - GL-4 is still produced, but not too many places bother to stock it anymore. CRC/Stalube still offers GL-4; NAPA and CarQuest have a GL-3/4/5 which should be fine too.

ASTM D-130 is normally run at 212ºF, but to make the test more severe AGMA increased the temperature to 250ºF. ASTM D-130 is used to determine the corrosiveness of a gear oil’s EP additive to nonferrous metals. A polished copper strip is immersed in the 250ºF oil bath for three hours and the EP additive corrosiveness is determined by comparing the strip against ASTM pre-rated strips.
ASTM rates the test strip as: 1 a or b; 2 a, b, c, d or e; 3 a or b; or 4 a, b, c or d.
Ratings of 1 a or 1 b are the least corrosive.

...If I was putting in a synthetic, it'd be Redline MT-90 GL-4 or Royal Purple Max-Gear 80w90 GL-4/GL-5. Royal Purple meets the GL-5 spec but their "Synslide" EP additive is non-corrosive so it's no threat to the VW synchros. Another choice would be Amsoil, I haven't used it myself but it's claimed to be safe for GL-4 applications...

[Pablo2]

I've been searching for those elusive GL-5 damaged VW synchro rings for about 40 years now ..

MT-90 is for gearboxes, not transaxles. Even RedLine now cautions against using MTL and MT-90 for hypoid (or small) R&Ps .. so while you can use it (probably without consequence), there are better choices.

[Canuck70Ghia]

Hey Marc,

That is exactly what I was thinking. I have an EFI Mod (check the other forums for my early MS III build based Mexican EFI parts) 1600cc with a mild cam and some nice internals to get this thing maybe to 100hp. That was my goal, obviously not there yet. No heavy lifting planned, it is just a nice car for my wife and I to drive on weekends and sunny days (it is a Ghia). Reliability was the cause for the EFI conversion and less maintenance.

As for transaxle internals, I noticed that the black stuff that came out was really really thick and took forever to drain. I drained it to remove the transaxle, just in case something decided to cover the floor. I really appreciate the discussion on fluid as I would have missed that. There is NOBODY up here with air cooled experience anymore, at least on central and east coasts. i know some fellows on the west coast who still work on and are up to speed, but they are 3500 miles from here . . .

[Marc]

Could be someone put in some thicker lube, like 85W-140, at one point in time (hopefully because they were misinformed and not because they were trying to "cure" a noise). I still think it's worth a shot to scrape off the crud and replace the leaking seals/gaskets, put some fresh fluid in and give it a chance....typically the first thing to go bad is the 2nd gear synchro, but if wifey doesn't mind that it may have many miles of service left. If you find out that it's noisy in 3rd/4th, that's indicative of a bad front mainshaft bearing...something that can be replaced without major surgery, but the cost-effectiveness is questionable on a hi-miles box. If you do end up eventually replacing it, odds are it'll be with a trans which has the superior `71-up clutch release bearing setup, so keep that in mind if you're buying new clutch components - get a pressure plate which has a removable thrust ring so it can work with either TOB.

I assume you plan to replace the front mount, from the pics it looks like that one has served out its time.

I've been searching for those elusive GL-5 damaged VW synchro rings for about 40 years now ..
MT-90 is for gearboxes, not transaxles. Even RedLine now cautions against using MTL and MT-90 for hypoid (or small) R&Ps .. so while you can use it (probably without consequence), there are better choices.

I stand corrected, I was unaware that Redline had rescinded their support of MT-90 for hypoid gears. Most of my input is based upon decades-old information, I'll confess to not always keeping current since retirement. The "fabled" destruction of light-alloy synchro rings doesn't take place until high temperatures are reached, so for most folks it's not a big deal...but still best to avoid GL-5 (especially GL-5 that's not MT-1 rated) IMO.

[Canuck70Ghia]

Hey Marc,

The car has 27,000 original miles on it and was running when I brought it north from Massachusetts (on a trailer). I am confident the transaxle has some miles left in it.

I am going online to order the parts. Confirm:

Final drive seals 113 301 189F
"dust cap" 113 517 289A
Spring Clips 113 517 279
Shift housing ("nose cone") gasket 211 301 215
Input shaft seal 113 311 113A

What would be the front mount part number? I will check at Long.

[Canuck70Ghia]

Long does not ship to Canada . . . Sigh.

Ordered the front mount from California Imports.

Going to try the dealer tomorrow for the other parts.

[Marc]

...The car has 27,000 original miles on it and was running when I brought it north from Massachusetts (on a trailer). I am confident the transaxle has some miles left in it....

Sounds like quite the score. The `70 engine (last year of singleport in the US, first year of 1600cc) was a decent motor - they revamped the case to replace the horrendous `68/`69 H5 "cottage-cheese-alloy" piece, incorporating larger oil passages and the dual pressure-relief system. Still had the cooler-inside-shroud arrangement, but the cooler passages were enlarged (it's a one-year-only item, uses the same 021 117 151A seals as the doghouse-cooler setup.) Not quite as desirable overall to most folks compared to the DP1600, but singleports make nice drivers and yield slightly better mileage so there's a market for them, should you decide to sell off the original engine...or even just the heads.

[Canuck70Ghia]

Even Better . . .

A year after I got the car I was looking for parts, glass, etc. A lady in Vermont put an advertisement into the Samba, said she had two Ghias, one coupe and one convertible and first one to get them out of her barn could take them away. I was down there 24 hrs later and was the first to show up. Turns the coupe was TWO serials numbers off mine! Same colour, everything. That was a score. I let the second guy to show up have the other one, as it took two of us all day and two 4 X 4's to get them out of the barn and up a hill to the trailers. They were good parts cars but not runners, the mud had been up to the gunwales for some years.

I have totally rebuilt the first engine, line bored both cases and have the second case standing by. I also put a dual port head on the engine . . . so I think I have the best of both worlds . . .

The second engine is marked for my 65 split Kombi which is waiting under a tarp for some TLC. It is a total rebuild.

[Marc]

The `70 B6 SP1600 case is analogous to the early`71 "non-ribbed" AE DP unit (i.e. not quite as good as the later AE, AH, etc. but still adequate for a stocker) so a low-mileage one should serve well as the foundation of a mild DP1600. The "sunken-stud" modification, which anchors the left-upper-front stud deeper in the case to stagger the stresses exerted at the base of #3 cylinder, is worthwhile, as are "case-savers" - although the latter aren't vital on such low-mileage cases when used for stock applications IMO.
Personally I'd prefer singleport heads on the Bus (less peak HP, but a little more low-end torque).

[Canuck70Ghia]

I went to the Dealership today and they stock only the circlips and the remainder is not available anymore.

Anyone have any advice on getting the parts?

[Bruce2]

Ordered the front mount from California Imports.

You can get the flange seals and center plugs from CIP. Get the trans gasket set, it will have the paper gasket between the nose cone and the gear carrier.

Is there wet oil leaking from the input shaft? If not, leave it alone. It's not easy to get out or back in without proper tools.

The little seal at the hockey stick never leaks, don't replace it. Yours isn't leaking.

Once you have the flanges off, it's not too much work to remove the side covers. Clean them up and put a new O-Ring on (in the gasket set).

There's a small bolt with an 11mm hex head right near the front rubber mount that's pointing straight up. Clean around that then take it out. Apply some sealant to the threads and put it back in.

Don't worry about the GL-5 doing damage to your synchros. I've never seen this fabled theoretical damage other than slightly brown synchros.

[Marc]

Huh. I'd think they'd stock at least the 020 409 289A waterpumper dustcaps (since they've gotta be removed to get to the circlips). I guess they only keep the circlips in stock for CV joint service (same part is used there).

CIP1 has the final drive seals: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 01-189-FPR

Circlips (only as a set of 4): http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... -517-279-4

"Dust caps": http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 517-289-A2

I don't find the nosecone gasket (211 301 215) at CIP1 outside of a full trans gasket set, which seems odd since they sell nosecones...might be worth calling them to see if they have any. DO NOT substitute the late-style gasket, it's intended for transmissions with the '72½-up mainshaft bearing. Since the 211 301 215 fits all Type I/III transmissions from `61-`72 as well as `60-`67 Buses, it shouldn't be all that hard to find.

Mainshaft seal: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 311-113-A2

As Bruce pointed out, there's a special tool for pulling the mainshaft seal that makes it much easier (although it can be removed without the tool if you're persistent - one "shadetree" approach is to drive a sheetmetal screw into it to pry/yank on). Installation only requires a piece of pipe that's about the same diameter as the seal O.D. - early trans cases didn't have any step to stop the seal from going all the way through (early versions of the seal had a flange that stopped them, no longer present in the replacement part) but on a `70 case it's fairly foolproof, so long as you don't disrupt the little spring inside the seal which applies tension to its lips. Judging by how "clean" the bellhousing looks below the seal in your photo, I'd say the seal must be leaking significantly.

You may be able to borrow/rent the seal puller from your F.L.A.P.S.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 6BrZsiJpNI