Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Discuss VW transaxles and transmissions. Gearheads wanted!

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Pablo2
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:29 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Henry. Wheel hop on the track with sticky tires will usually damage trans internals .. and serious off-road jumps are without a doubt far worse. We used to see the Gem 8620 synchro teeth strip, as well as VW 113, which typically had only 9 drive teeth.

But .. I'm hoping fastback's trans will get 100 passes before requiring inspection/rebuild.
aka Pablo, gears, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86

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Henryhoehandle
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:29 am

Have you seen the 113 gears that used 2 sets of 5 teeth? Most have 3 sets of 3 that only get used but some had 2 sets of 5. I have "knocked off" the 3 sets of 3 and that leaves 3 sets of 7 I think? But I have never tried knocking off the 2 sets of 5.. have you?

VW really did some strange things and a couple stand out that I have never really understood.

One is why did they use straight or square teeth on the inside of their sliders and have the synchro cone teeth wedged or tapered..why not taper/wedge both? ( I know they did change them in later years). It is strange to me that it even works, but it does/did. Also, on their 1st/2nd sliders, why are the engagement teeth recessed back into the slider? Shouldn't they be even with the slider? I mean the dog teeth on the cones are barely long enough anyway. Sometimes I wonder what their engineers were thinking, lol.

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Pablo2
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:25 am

Oh yes .. I've seen some head-scratching changes over the years. If you go back and look at the split-case transaxle synchro tooth geometry, you'll find some synchro cones in which groups of teeth contact on drive, but not on coast. But, all in all, the VW engineers were ahead of their Porsche counterparts in the area of synchro tooth geometry, synchros, and associated parts.

I do believe in deepening the engagement whenever possible (and of course the corresponding mods to the shift detent positions).

.. and out of the cobwebs comes one more mod fastback must perform. This concerns the 1st/2nd shift rail, as the convoluted shifting mechanism in the Type II nosecone was never meant to be speed-shifted. A "pathway" sloping back toward neutral detent groove should be ground starting at the 2nd gear detent groove, which assures that this shift rail ends up in neutral when speed-shifting from 2nd to 3rd. Otherwise, the shifter will (at some time or another .. Murphy's law says your most important race) end up stuck in neutral position, while the trans remains in 2nd gear.
aka Pablo, gears, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86

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fastback
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:46 pm

oops i did not read this last post.
now the tranny is almost finished.
do you mean a deeper groove for the rails in neutral or a sort of grove between the detents in tha rails?
pictures tell more than thousand words. especially for us foreigners :)
good tip which i can do next time i open the box,(could e in a short time :D )

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:56 pm

the weddele hub has to be returned for a new better one.
so i found another late hub and got the 3/4 gear play within "spec" but still on the high side.
as i will race the weekend 16/17 aug.
playing with the gear calc i made a last minute change to get a lower ratio
i had a very good 5,43 R/P so i take a chance on this
teoretically ,i will hit very close to max power/rev limit on 4.th at 1/4 based on earlier top speed passes.
made a alu "washer" for the bolt that holds the mainshaft in the bearing
some grinding needed inside the nosecone to accpet the bolt that sticks out
adjusted the forks in the jig
also checked the "r" numbers (50)from the ring gear and was within 2/100.
so tomorrow the ring gear goes on the ZF and the tranny is ready to go into the car after i set backlash
~0.12 for a dragrace ok??


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fastback
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:04 pm

a note to the strenght discussion here , looking into parts in the drive train there is several parts that look very fragile that keeps up with the torque/inertia of the engine
the small splines on the input shaft and the small diameter that has
and looking at a clutch disc , the puny small "sheet metal " that connects the outer part to the center part
the hold up pretty good.
so compare this to the engagement teeth on the gears , 15 teeht should hold up good.??

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:10 pm

also looked at the weddle hub and gears compared to stock
my supplier says the weddle hub is compatible with both stock and (of course) weddle gears
but the weddle gears has the axial thrust going to the outer diameter on the hub
when stock vw has it in the center
would'nt it make more stress om the hub having the thrust "out there" making it more voulnarable to flexing??


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Henryhoehandle
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:03 pm

I would not think there should be near enough thrust against the hub to flex it. Maybe I am wrong but I think it would surely gall the gear and/or hub before it even got close to enough pressure to flex/ bend it. Also, since Weddle uses chromoly, it should be stronger as well.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:08 pm

Also, you will break 1st and 2nd gear before the input splines strip....as for the clutch discs, breakage is somewhat rare unless it was a spring type.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:30 pm

fastback wrote:oops i did not read this last post.
now the tranny is almost finished.
do you mean a deeper groove for the rails in neutral or a sort of grove between the detents in tha rails?
pictures tell more than thousand words. especially for us foreigners :)
good tip which i can do next time i open the box,(could e in a short time :D )
Hopefully Pablo has a pic of this, but he is correct, bus boxes do not speed shift well.There used to be an intermediate housing that one buy that converted it to a type one shift configuration.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Bruce2 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:35 pm

fastback wrote: the ring gear goes on the ZF and the

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The ZF will not survive. In the first few passes you will blow up the tiny spider gears. The only help I can think of is to add more discs so the discs take more of the load than the spiders.
Also, you should drill big holes in the side of the housing to let oil in.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:41 pm

So which will break first? Just ribbing you fastback! Will it be 1st gear ? ZF? Ring and pinion? Lol.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:05 am

:D
well something may/will break! sooner or later
i hear some are negative to this ZF but i only have good experience with it.
the spiders are small yes , but they rest in a housing that seem to be very good quality steel
which maybe adds up for the spiders beiing smaller??
i'd rather use the ZF than a china super diff.
the 094 4 spider diff , i belive is not that strong either
i have run a 094 ZF in my bus for 6 years now , had more discs in it and drilled holes ;)
my intensions with the extra discs was to get more lockup
this is in a 2380LBS bus + driver , with semislicks running turbo engines up to 571 whp .dragrace and circletrack. even had puny "wheels up" with it :).
i have broken 2 axles on dragrace and one CV joint on in circltrack on those 6 years.
but no clutch sidestep and dragslicks though..
now i have bought a set of Hoosiers DOT drag radials, so grip will be better.
i took the ZF apart yesterday and internals look ok. minor wear.
but the other ZF i have which goes into this tranny is a stock setup.
i can do the oil mod to this also, but i do not have more discs to tighten it up

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:13 am

Henryhoehandle wrote:I would not think there should be near enough thrust against the hub to flex it. Maybe I am wrong but I think it would surely gall the gear and/or hub before it even got close to enough pressure to flex/ bend it. Also, since Weddle uses chromoly, it should be stronger as well.
some stock hubs and gears have galling on them yes.
most likely to oil starvation?
there must be a cignificant force to the hub's since the stock ones break , even with the thrust is in the center on the stock hubs.
then adding axial forces to the "weaker" part of the hub may look like adding more stress to that area.??
but as you state a better steel quality maybe does the trick.
and hopefully weddle know what they're doing :)

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:20 am

fastback wrote:
Henryhoehandle wrote:
fastback wrote:oops i did not read this last post.
now the tranny is almost finished.
do you mean a deeper groove for the rails in neutral or a sort of grove between the detents in tha rails?
pictures tell more than thousand words. especially for us foreigners :)
good tip which i can do next time i open the box,(could e in a short time :D )
Hopefully Pablo has a pic of this, but he is correct, bus boxes do not speed shift well.There used to be an intermediate housing that one buy that converted it to a type one shift configuration.
yes i have Berg bus 600 converison in my squarback,
but its a 002 5 rib case with shorte gears
Land products had this type 1 shifter conversion available for the 091 some time ago
much better shifting on this one than a stock 002/091 style .
but i will not convert to that style , due to much work with gear mechanism in this car
only small mod i have done is to try smooth out the edges on the rails/shift mechanism and added a steel ball for the hockey stick
i'm not trying to make the best 091 ever :) , but build a OK tranny and make the the most out of parts i have available , on a budget :P

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