Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

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fastback
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:12 pm

Thx will look into it.
There are a little support from the nosecone
With a tight bore in a new alu intermediate housing it seems to work good.
Used this solution in the tranny i have in the car now
Though a weddle hd house

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Pablo2
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:16 pm

YES. I'd forgotten that Weddle now makes a HD 091 housing. In that case, I'd suggest using Weddle's housing, and figuring out a 4th gear thrust washer solution over using that bearing. http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 50&t=89944

.. and the 5.43 is definitely stronger than the 5.38 it replaced.
Last edited by Pablo2 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Bruce2 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:10 pm

fastback wrote: Image
I like the lightening. Although you should have drilled more of them.

Photo taken at ERCO:
Image

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:07 am

will do next time :) was a bit on the safe side this firts time .

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:54 pm

can't find any info regarding the 3. gear axial play in the VW manual or long enterprise rebuild manual
but i have found some info that there is only a minimum clearance that is most important.
and a bit greater than on the 1. and 2. gears
the 3. gear is around 0.25mm
measuered 2 other 094 gears and they are in the same area.
and 4. is around ok around 0.10mm

also tested a new 3/4 HD hub from weddle that i have bought for my 1,9TDI 5 speed 094 tranny.
this is very loose on the splines, like floating, should'nt it be press fit??

Image
Last edited by fastback on Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:08 pm

So, are you saying you installed a stock hub, and did not use the Weddle hub?
Normally, when the hub is pressed on against the 3rd gear side circlip, it then has to be pressed back outward VERY slightly AFTER 4th gear side circlip is installed, to restore sufficient side clearance to 3rd gear (evening out the clearance between 3rd & 4th). In your case, it sounds like the hub needs to be VERY lightly pressed in toward 3rd gear to even out the clearances. 0.1mm is insufficient side clearance for an 091 gear. Are you using a machined washer to measure 4th gear side clearance?

Yes, the hub is normally quite snug on the splines (press fit). HOWEVER, a very light press fit on the splines (pushed on by hand) might not be a bad thing (although I haven't seen it before). "Very loose"? .. that doesn't sound right at all. Something's not right there. All of the Weddle hubs I've installed have fit just like stock hubs.
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:22 pm

i'm doing som testing so none of them is permanently installed.
i have a upgraded vw (90->) 3/4 hub with the rounded slot's that i consider using
this has the normal press fit
but i also consdered using the weddle hub, but after testing the weddle and found the very loose fit i'm not so shure
it just drops on without any resistance, feel's kind of a floating spline for CV's :)
and think that is not a good thing

i have only done the 4. clearance with a ruler and feeler gauge
i have some additional clearance using the 0.10mm and with 0,15 is just to much

the clearance to 3. is with the hub presses completely against 3. clip.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:41 am

VW made at least two versions of round slot hubs. The later ones are nitrided (the one @ 6 o'clock in the attached photo), and last longer than the earlier ones, but they still break. The Weddle hub is the only one that is a properly heat treated part. I would return/replace the Weddle one.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1171315.jpg
Last edited by Pablo2 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by fastback » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:50 pm

good info

here's how badly the weddle fit. http://youtu.be/60XHr02fWzw?list=UUpzOE ... -lDTRgDPdQ

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:56 pm

Pablo2 wrote:YES. I'd forgotten that Weddle now makes a HD 091 housing. In that case, I'd suggest using Weddle's housing, and figuring out a 4th gear thrust washer solution over using that bearing. http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 50&t=89944

.. and the 5.43 is definitely stronger than the 5.38 it replaced.
I have seen the teeth stripped off of stock gears with ALL of them on..I wonder if removing half will make this weaker?

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:58 pm

fastback wrote:good info

here's how badly the weddle fit. http://youtu.be/60XHr02fWzw?list=UUpzOE ... -lDTRgDPdQ
I have had Weddle's hubs fit somewhat loose, that is I can install and remove them by hand and never found it to be a problem. It might be a problem at some point, though. Also, I have never had one fit as loose as the one in the video.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:20 pm

Henryhoehandle wrote:
Pablo2 wrote:YES. I'd forgotten that Weddle now makes a HD 091 housing. In that case, I'd suggest using Weddle's housing, and figuring out a 4th gear thrust washer solution over using that bearing. http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 50&t=89944

.. and the 5.43 is definitely stronger than the 5.38 it replaced.
I have seen the teeth stripped off of stock gears with ALL of them on..I wonder if removing half will make this weaker?
You're confusing me by quoting my previous entry, which is unrelated to any teeth.

Which teeth have you seen stripped ? .. the gear teeth ? .. or the synchro teeth ?
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:15 pm

Pablo2 wrote:
Henryhoehandle wrote:
Pablo2 wrote:YES. I'd forgotten that Weddle now makes a HD 091 housing. In that case, I'd suggest using Weddle's housing, and figuring out a 4th gear thrust washer solution over using that bearing. http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 50&t=89944

.. and the 5.43 is definitely stronger than the 5.38 it replaced.
I have seen the teeth stripped off of stock gears with ALL of them on..I wonder if removing half will make this weaker?
You're confusing me by quoting my previous entry, which is unrelated to any teeth.

Which teeth have you seen stripped ? .. the gear teeth ? .. or the synchro teeth ?
Sorry Pablo, you are correct...but I am referring to the synchro teeth. It is not nearly as common in 3rd but I have seen those strip too.

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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Pablo2 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:47 pm

You really need to be far more specific about which teeth you have seen stripped. Which gear, and which type 113 ? 002 ? 091 ? Brand ?

The teeth that fastback are modifying are equidistant 091/094 teeth. In other words, all teeth are drive teeth (unlike 113/002 which come in groups of drive teeth / passive teeth, which cannot be reliably modified like he's done .. except for the aftermarket 113 & 002 teeth that we used to offer).

The 15 teeth that he's left untouched (on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th) are FAR stronger than the 10 teeth left in a Liberty pro-ring modification, and by leaving functioning synchros intact, a cushioning effect remains that will give even further reliability to those remaining teeth, over what's done in a pro-ring mod.

I've done experimental slick-shift mods with a number of different marques .. some have only made 2-3 passes before failing, but it was merely to prove the "theory" before diving into a production run of actual racing components. The VW teeth are FAR stronger than any of these other marques .. both in the size of the teeth, and the number of original teeth (30). 30, being divisible by 2, as well as 3, allows the stronger version of slick-shift (every other tooth, instead of 2 out of every 3).
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Re: Hand Packed bearings and slick shift

Post by Henryhoehandle » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:43 pm

2nd gear in 113, 002, and 091 (stock) are prone to stripping even without any modifications. I have also seen all three types stripped in 3rd but not nearly as often. I am talking about synchro cone teeth. Even though the 091 has more teeth contacting, I have still seen a few of these stripped. Most of the transmissions I build are for off road applications with very aggressive tires and hill climbing which involves jumping off of the ground and landing with full power to the wheels. Again, it is not so much a problem in 3rd, but 2nd is. I was just wondering if he had any trouble by removing half of the teeth. I have not built a lot of liberty pro ring transmissions, but I have not seen any broke off (they are rounded off), but if removing half leaves it stronger then a liberty, then it should never cause a problem as the main gear teeth themselves would most likely strip before the synchro teeth.

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