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Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:12 pm
by fusername
Also I am ready to murder the world trying to hunt down the play in my axle tubes. for the record, I had NO OIL LEAKAGE at the end of the axle, and just had to break all those time consuming seals to inspect a bearing taht actually looks perfectly fine. now to measure everything and scratch my head. if this whole thing was a loose axle nut (it was ~60 ftlbs when removed, so maaaaaybe) i will be ahppy and mad.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:28 pm
by fusername
oh and on MY spacer, the outer bevel and inner bevel are on opposite sides, so I put the inner bevel in, so the rubber sits in it. 0 leaks, but I may have a parts mismatch elswhere...

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:54 pm
by Marc
fusername wrote:http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/ShortVSLong
axle tube ID, easiest info I seen anywhere
Unfortunately that's incomplete information since it doesn't distinguish between the `67 axle tube and the other "long" ones...and although I don't recall the dimensions, I can assure you that the `67 is different - the bearing recess in the tube is ~1/8" shallower.
It took him three pages to convey no more information than what's contained in the second photo...personally I wouldn't bother to bookmark this.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:46 pm
by Marc
I think I've found the information we've been after. Prior to `65, the bearing covers had no weep hole and from `65-up they do. Otherwise they're interchangeable. `67 look similar to the `65/`66 (in fact they could be the same part). I'm still not certain of how to positively identify these parts by casting number alone - it's even possible that the same casting could receive different machining - but the thing to remember is that `68/III are 3mm shallower than `67.
Image
pre`65 without weep hole on left.




According to one source, really early (up to Chassis No. 76 299) had a casting number of 111 501 311B.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:57 pm
by bones
Yes Marc - way to go!! So the covers I have look like the one on the left. As I mentioned even though the car is a 67 it has short axles and tubes. I don't have the measurement on the tube end piece because I'm at work. The backing plates I think are 67 and I'm told 67 had two different drums - narrow and wider and these are the narrow ones without a slinger tube.

So in the early example without a weep hole what seals the thing from leaking all over the brakes?

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:08 pm
by Marc
There are two styles of rear drum that'll interchange on `58-`67 Bugs. The early one is smooth in the center, and the late one has 5 "spokes" in the center of the casting for added strength. Before the weep hole was adopted, any oil that got past the seal was captured in a stamped-steel slinger (AKA "deflector") and exited via a tube through a hole in the drum's perimeter. Another hole cast into the face of the drum was provided for a sheetmetal tab which held the slinger in place when the drum was removed.
I found an article on the short/long axle subject in the July 2005 Hot VWs magazine...unfortunately as is typical of their "technical" coverage it's incomplete, incorrect, and provides no casting numbers. They also fail to differentiate between the pre`65 and the `65/`66 covers - but they do show the difference in depth on the unique `67 covers. Unfortunately it appears that someone shuffled the parts around midway through the photo shoot so rather than clarify the issue this article just further muddies the waters. The first three pictures are OK, but things just go downhill from there. The side-by-side pictures with the ruler inserted in the caps are mislabeled and miscaptioned, there's no way to make any sense of it as presented.
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Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:23 pm
by bones
Thanks Marc I remember that article. I think we have 61-66 tubes, end casting and cap with 67 drums. The drums do not have the 5 spokes but are rather flat inside. They do have a chamfered margin around the outer edge. I need to look more closely at the drum for the "hole" There is no stamped slinger so at this point I'm wondering if I'll get lucky and not have any oil leak past the seal but I don't want oil all over the brakes.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:43 pm
by Marc
Smooth center drums are `58-`64. Yours may have come off of a `67, but they aren't 1967 parts.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:01 pm
by fusername
fun fact: etka is useless here and seems to list the same PN for everything as far as the cap goes.

as for my info I posted, the 67 long axle tube uses the the short encd casting, or bearing flange as VW calls it. I dont know why this manual doesnt show pre 66 (model year 67 I assume), as I missed that key piece of info and thought it covered everything. when this thread runs its course I will try to make a chart or spread sheet describing the interchange. I appear to have 67' caps on an pre-66 setup, but the numbers don't jive w/ the book infront of me, gonna go re-measure, maybe I converted units wrong.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:02 pm
by fusername
I posted this in the other thread about my problems,
My German 1974 VW workshop manual lists the following:

Type 1 august 1966- August 1967
* 1358 mm track
* 5 lug
* axle nut w/no shoulder
* bearing cover seating depth 22.5 mm
* ?? axle
Type 1 august 1967- on
* 1350 mm track
* 4 lug
* axle nut with shoulder
* bearing cover seating depth 19.5 MM
* ?? but different axle (has longer splines in diagram, but not stated)

Type 3 From August 1965-on
all same as type 1 from august 67 - on
EXCEPT
different backplate/brake assembly
two piece drum
differnt axle tube

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:59 pm
by Marc
15" Beetle 5-lug rims and `68-early`72 Beetle 4-lug rims are all 4", ET40, and `67 long/short-spline axles measure the same from inner paddle to bearing seat. The 5-lug and 4-lug drums have similar dimensions from wheel bearing to lugbolt plane. Conclusion: the 8mm difference in published track width between `67 and `68 is primarily due to the fact that `67 axletube endcastings have a shallower recess than the `68, placing the bearing and axle slightly more outboard (less of the axle "paddle" is engaged with the fulcrum plates in the diff sidegear). Because of this, the `67 bearing cover needs to have a deeper bearing recess, as your figures indicate - opposite of what's shown in the DB&HVWs article.

If you in fact have `68 bearing covers on "short" (pre`67) axletube endcastings, the wheel bearings may not being held in place securely - they (and the axles) will have endplay.

As a rule, parts applications are listed by model year rather than calendar year - starting in 1956, VW's model year starts on Aug 1st of the preceding calendar year (so the 1955 model's production run was from 1/1/55 thru 7/31/55). In the case of "running" changes where a part is updated between model years, you may find an introduction date mentioned (and usually an introduction VIN) but if it falls after 1 August the part still belongs to the next year's production. You'll often find parts listed as fitting through 31 July 1966 or from 1 Aug 1967, with 8/1/66 through 7/31/67 never mentioned - that's simply because there are many 1967-model parts which are one-year-only and unavailable - nobody will tool up to produce them for such a limited market.
Remember that while part numbers are unique and specific, the same isn't always true of casting numbers - and although more often than not casting numbers are the same as part numbers, there're just enough exceptions to make things "interesting" ;)

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:06 pm
by fusername
Yes, the year thing is annoying, so when i know they mean august, i use it, otherwise, ambiguity is the game for the day. Turns out i may have all correct parts, and my play remains unexplained. My endcap is 311 501 311, indicating type 3 but it is 5.5 mm deep. So unless there is an early type three w/o the A suffix, i am confused.

Re: swing axle bearing cap question

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:34 pm
by Marc
311 501 311 is the correct casting number for the "short" axle tubes, although I don't believe they were ever used on any Type III application. Remember, casting number doesn't always mean part number, and the first three digits of a part number only indicate which model the part was expected to see its first application on when it was in the design stage - 99.9% of the time it tells you which model it ended up on in production, but there are some exceptions.
They didn't measure the bearing recess depth on that one for the DB&HVWs article, but they did for the `67 ("approximately ½", about 12.7mm) and the `68/Type III ("3/8"", or ~9½mm)...that's it, there are only three depths - perhaps only two, if pre`67 and `67 are the same as I suspect they could be.