Was it an EJ20 Turbo and Subarugears 5 speed you wanted to fit into a beetle and retain the standard decklid?
Note the Subaru gearbox output splines height above the frame horns - we used a swingaxle pan for the worst possible scenario. A proper IRS pan or modified swingaxle pan has dimples in the frame horns, providing more clearance and allowing the motor to drop even lower than in these pictures, thus providing ample clearance for the quad cam belt covers.
The trickery is achieved through using these extended Subaflanges. These move the CV joint outboard of the frame horns. The Kombi axles used will need to be shortened 60mm to accomodate this.
Was it an EJ20T and 5 speed you wanted to fit in under an uncut decklid?
Note the clearance of the Subaru output shaft over the frame horns in a swingaxle pan. In an IRS or modified swingaxle pan the dimples would give more clearance, allowing the drivetrain to be further lowered and providing even more clearance for the cam belt covers.
The trickery is performed by using a set of extended Subaflanges to move the CV joints outboard of the frame horns. This requires the Kombi axles used to be shortened an extra 60mm.
You said "Note the clearance of the Subaru output shaft over the frame horns in a swingaxle pan. In an IRS or modified swingaxle pan the dimples would give more clearance, allowing the drivetrain to be further lowered and providing even more clearance for the cam belt covers."
Does this mean that it CAN be fitted in a swingaxle arrangement? I thought that it HAD to be an IRS setup to use the subaru 'box?
Also, Wouldn't moving the drivetrain Lower, would this then give you sump clearance issues? The sumps are really deep on these.
I'm looking to perhaps locate it further towards the front of the car. I know that with a Turbo, you normally will have to cut into the parcel tray but it doesn't look like this has been done with your photos of an EJ20T install. Is this because you know a trick that I don't or because this is not a complete install in that photo? I was under the impression that a NA engine will fit, but a turbo will need cutting into the parcel tray area for the turbo / intercooler clearance?
Also, I think I will go Turbo right off the batt as if I start with an EJ22 and get it all running, then want to switch to a turbo, the wiring loom will have to be re-done. Makes more sense to do it once and that's it.
I said swingaxle PAN...but that's only because people get swingaxle pans and convert them to IRS with some jibs, a welder, grinder and pivot boxes. The subie box is IRS so must us an IRS setup. Sorry - you will have to do the IRS conversion for either the bus box or subie box.
Moving the driveteain lower when using a subie box doesn't give you sump clearance issues. That blue beetle uses a standard sump - not even shortened. The subie box input shaft is 55mm higher up than a VW input shaft so your engine crank line is 55mm higher. So even when lowering it a bit using the extended subaflanges, you are still better of for sump clearance than when using a VW box.
To fit a turbo subie into a beetle there is normally some cutting into the parcel tray area. You are correct, this was not a complete install, just a mock up to see if we could get it under the decklid. You will likely have to cut into the parcel tray area to accommodate the turbo. There could be some tricks like using a different up-pipe to move the turbo or using a different set of Outback Motorsport exhaust manifolds to move the turbo to the rear of the car - but I haven't seen it done yet. Most people seem to be happy enough to modify the parcel tray area - it's the easiest solution.
The best conversions I've seen use the Liberty turbo water to air intercooler on top of the engine. Small and compact. Another beetle I've been in has a standard top mount intercooler but boxed and fed fresh outside air from two small intakes cut into the front of the rear guards and piped through. We thrashed the hell out of it and it's intake temps were below ambient. NICE setup. Just depends whether or not you want to cut the intakes into your guards.
ttriebler wrote:I said swingaxle PAN...but that's only because people get swingaxle pans and convert them to IRS with some jibs, a welder, grinder and pivot boxes. The subie box is IRS so must us an IRS setup. Sorry - you will have to do the IRS conversion for either the bus box or subie box...
Incorrect....as pointed out earlier Dave Folts has been making conversion axles for some 20 years(?) to convert Bus IRS boxes to SA.
It has been mentioned the Folts U joint conversions are for drag racing use only (Race car, no street) , very short life expectancy for the joints.
No personal experience with them, but it came up once when I suggested it as a possibility.
...Can't the Suby trans simply be flipped?
Seems like it would save a whole lotta $$$ and be stronger.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
ttriebler wrote:I said swingaxle PAN...but that's only because people get swingaxle pans and convert them to IRS with some jibs, a welder, grinder and pivot boxes. The subie box is IRS so must us an IRS setup. Sorry - you will have to do the IRS conversion for either the bus box or subie box...
Incorrect....as pointed out earlier Dave Folts has been making conversion axles for some 20 years(?) to convert Bus IRS boxes to SA.
The Folts swing axle conversion can't be used on the street. U-joints can't take the large axial loads that occur when you go around a corner.
Piledriver wrote:It has been mentioned the Folts U joint conversions are for drag racing use only (Race car, no street) , very short life expectancy for the joints.
No personal experience with them, but it came up once when I suggested it as a possibility.
...Can't the Suby trans simply be flipped?
Seems like it would save a whole lotta $$$ and be stronger.
Folts conversions can only be used for a short time (i.e. drag racing) before they wear out the diff due to the side loads. They cannot be used on the street for any reasonable length of time.
No, the Subie trans can't simply be flipped. Otherwise everyone would be doing it
I put some photos together once of what happens when you try to flip a subie trans - you have to make a very weird adaptor plate since the bellhousing is not a nice round one with 4 bolts like the VW one, the clutch fork stick out underneath the car and the CV joints end up really really high above the pan, meaning you have to lift the engine and trans up even higher.
Chris V wrote:Folts sells CV axles does he not...I though that's what some of the sand dune guys were running...a single inboard 930 and remain swingaxle...
Why would they do that? You still have the limitations of the swing axle, the only thing you may gain is maybe some protection on the diff from binding if you go too far on suspension compression or droop. If you are going that far with droop then you should be worried with "tuck under" and on compression your tires will most likely be hitting the cage (depending on where the torsion bar is set, I see a lot of swing rails with bare metal spots on the outside of the cage or frame). Also, for that much money (one much less two 930’s), you could be pretty far into an IRS conversion and be way ahead suspension travel wise.
Looks like I have a plan. Whichever way I go, I'm gonna need to convert to IRS. I did think that this was a crazy job, but looking into it, the bulk of the job is welding the two brackets.
I can make a Jig from an IRS car or borrow one. (There is a guy selling them on VZI too so if I wanted to I can just buy some)
Then it's just extending Brake lines and handbrake cables. Once done, I will be able to use a 1303 donor for it's trailing arms and gearbox. This will mate up to my existing set up. Then I can figure out which way I go. Either Bus / Subaru box. But I guess either way, I'll be better off once IRS and a 1303 box is better than my current one anyway.
I found a pretty good document (http://www.bajaclub.co.uk/PDF_Documents/IRS.PDF) to help with doing the conversion, and there are a few knocking about so I guess I'll just start to tackle the job.
Steve, this is the kind of locating bracket they sell in Europe from what I understand. If you have access to an IRS torsion tube this should be easy to duplicate. The other thing is that the motor mounts (aka pickle fork) in the swing axle torsion tube are round while the tubes in the IRS torsion tube are more oval to clear the CVs. You will have to cut some reliefs for the CVs in the swing mounts and fill them in with like gauge material then put a doubler on the opposite side to add support under and extending past the area you put the relief in. Not hard, just time consuming.
