The "Super 2 liter plus" outline revealed!

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Ephry73
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Post by Ephry73 » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:07 am

Nah, Maybe some NOS, so she could have a "Warp Speed" button

:P


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STRIDER
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reply to computer modeling somender sing groves.

Post by STRIDER » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:56 am

Boardwalk :: Forum List Groove Discussions Main Area

Turbulence
Date: 2005/10/27 13:46 By: The Eng. Status:
Karma: 0


Hello
Im an Canadian engineer who for the last 20 years has been involved in the R/D of pretty much every combustion energy system known. As soon as I read Mr. Singh's patent I realized what he has done, I believe he has applied the perfect multipoint self-igniting combustion qualities of pulse jet and pulse detonation engines to the piston engine. The spark plug may start the sequence, but the convergent flame fronts is where all the action is.
My question is, what is the geometry of the turbulence Mr.Sing uses. My modeling shows the convergent wave fronts can shear and roll together, with a turning moment introduced these waves then turn parallel to the cylinder and rotate around around a central axis forming a vortex, the vortecies join forming a toroidal circulation like a donut. But I do not believe this is the vortex Mr.Singh refers to, and some animations on this site show the flame fronts in the grooves diverging in the end of the groove, so where is the vortex?
It is easy to see how a vortex is produced, so I believe I may have overcomplicated what is happening in his flows. If anyone can explain the circulation of the flows involved it would be greatly

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Can Drive Soon
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Post by Can Drive Soon » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:45 pm

You need to incorporate a movie or something for the rest of use to understand. :shock:

Screenshots of this model?

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Class 11 streeter
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Post by Class 11 streeter » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:59 pm

This is the problem with engineers putting their thoughts into the public eye even if intended just for discussion, it does no good for the enthusiast (most of us) to worry about this stuff!

This little tidbit tells one a lot:
Engineer wrote:The spark plug may start the sequence, but the convergent flame fronts is where all the action is.
Amazing! Brilliant! I will bet he and his working group partner did a high five when they figured this out. I see that college degree was worth something!

Let engineers say their say and do their thing, and don't loose sleep over any of it........
So you think your project is taking forever eh? Well you've got nothing on me.....

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Re: reply to computer modeling somender sing groves.

Post by Plastermaster » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:50 pm

STRIDER wrote:Boardwalk :: Forum List Groove Discussions Main Area

Turbulence
Date: 2005/10/27 13:46 By: The Eng. Status:
Karma: 0


Hello
Im an Canadian engineer who for the last 20 years has been involved in the R/D of pretty much every combustion energy system known. As soon as I read Mr. Singh's patent I realized what he has done, I believe he has applied the perfect multipoint self-igniting combustion qualities of pulse jet and pulse detonation engines to the piston engine. The spark plug may start the sequence, but the convergent flame fronts is where all the action is.
My question is, what is the geometry of the turbulence Mr.Sing uses. My modeling shows the convergent wave fronts can shear and roll together, with a turning moment introduced these waves then turn parallel to the cylinder and rotate around around a central axis forming a vortex, the vortecies join forming a toroidal circulation like a donut. But I do not believe this is the vortex Mr.Singh refers to, and some animations on this site show the flame fronts in the grooves diverging in the end of the groove, so where is the vortex?
It is easy to see how a vortex is produced, so I believe I may have overcomplicated what is happening in his flows. If anyone can explain the circulation of the flows involved it would be greatly
I understand donut. :D

Ron

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Kelley
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Post by Kelley » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:07 pm

Nice hijack. Now, back to Beth's engine.


Jake, take it away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Can Drive Soon
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Post by Can Drive Soon » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:12 pm

kelwa1 wrote:Nice hijack. Now, back to Beth's engine.


Jake, take it away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
We were talking about ways to improve beths engine with this squishies thing. And our strider friennd was trying to explain something about how it works.

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Kelley
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Post by Kelley » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:33 pm

Can Drive Soon wrote: We were talking about ways to improve beths engine with this squishies thing.
Yes, I know, I've been reading with enthusiasm since Jake started the post.
Can Drive Soon wrote: And our strider friennd was trying to explain something about how it works.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and his explanation, in a brilliantly engineered fashion, failed. Most of us are not engineers, nor would we understand what he's saying, unless he speaks in terms everyone can understand. I have an idea, but that's it. Only because I went to the link provided earlier.



I was just trying to get Jake to fess up, which wont happen. He'll only tell us when it's the right time.

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Post by HAM Inc » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:19 pm

mmmm...donuts!

I don't think it's fair to jump down the guys throat because he's an engineer. After all he does own an aircooled vehicle so he must not be to bad a guy.

I think I more or less follow what he saying. It's really just a high faluten way of saying that once the spark plug fires all sort of madness follows that is far more important than the actual moment of ignition. I think it's accurate to say that most of us here already know that. It is, however, interesting to read a more scientific explanation for the events. Much has
been theorized on the subject of flame propogation over the years. But until, as Smokey Yunick used to say, we can put tiny man in a high temp fire suit in a combustion chamber to observe what's going on we can only make educated guesses based observed data (like chamber residue) and more sophisticated methods such as pressure probes scaterred around a chamber, a method that has been attempted over the years but is not always conclusive due to the impact that the probe itself has on combustion.

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Post by Plastermaster » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:24 pm

I was hesitant to start the donut thing because I didn't want it to be taken as disrepectful to Strider. So now I will clarify, I was really just polking fun at myself and my level of understanding. This is a good thread. Lets keep it going.

Ron

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Re: reply to computer modeling somender sing groves.

Post by Piledriver » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:20 pm

STRIDER wrote:Boardwalk :: Forum List Groove Discussions Main Area

Turbulence
Date: 2005/10/27 13:46 By: The Eng. Status:
Karma: 0


Hello
Im an Canadian engineer who for the last 20 years has been involved in the R/D of pretty much every combustion energy system known. As soon as I read Mr. Singh's patent I realized what he has done, I believe he has applied the perfect multipoint self-igniting combustion qualities of pulse jet and pulse detonation engines to the piston engine. The spark plug may start the sequence, but the convergent flame fronts is where all the action is.
My question is, what is the geometry of the turbulence Mr.Sing uses. My modeling shows the convergent wave fronts can shear and roll together, with a turning moment introduced these waves then turn parallel to the cylinder and rotate around around a central axis forming a vortex, the vortecies join forming a toroidal circulation like a donut. But I do not believe this is the vortex Mr.Singh refers to, and some animations on this site show the flame fronts in the grooves diverging in the end of the groove, so where is the vortex?
It is easy to see how a vortex is produced, so I believe I may have overcomplicated what is happening in his flows. If anyone can explain the circulation of the flows involved it would be greatly
I've been trying to model it using OpenFOAM, but I haven't been successful manually generating a proper mesh. (or even modifying the sample pent roof design)

I visualize Mr Singhs grooves (as he implemented them) generating a very fast converging frame front, and dumping whatever A/F mix is in the squish area (unburnt) right INTO the flame kernel core at high velocity, further accellerating the process.

Please contact me offline if you have any FOAM compatible mesh generation tools .
I have CPU cycles to spare, and a working OpenFOAM install.

I can generate the movie.

A correct Autocad model (3D) of a T1 or T4 combustion chamber might help if anyone has one laying about. (I'd settle for a Cheby, any wedge would probably be a decent start)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Post by arlo » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:40 pm

I was interested in Singh's discovery too. It is easy to imagine a turbulent flow of air/fuel directed toward the origin of the flame front by those grooves. However, none of the test data I could see supported the claims! Most of it compared engines that sounded pretty tired and were rebuilt along with the addition of the grooves. They then ran somewhat better but how can we tell what was due to rebuild improvements or the grooves? I couldnt find any clear comparisons with measured performance improvements resulting from just the groove addition. I was looking for the type of testing Jake does when he is trying to sort out a new change...a good controled comparison with no other variables except the change being evaluated. Is there more good test data I am missing?

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Post by Bobtail » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:42 am

Agreed it does seem a bit to simple to put a grinder across a piston and shazam !! instant result.
You really would have thought if this was such a breakthrough that the major manufacturers would have done it.

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Post by Class 11 streeter » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:23 am

Since others feel the need to clarify themselves, I will also.
I figured 2 post STRIDER was created by a regular on this board, in this thread only, to do the old "cut and paste" thing to show info pulled off another bbs. No, it wasn't me, I am not afraid of shooting myself in the foot using my regular name, just check my past posts. :oops:
My point was to show that picking out things that engineers say to each other doesn't do us average Joe's any good whatsoever unless you really latch onto that kind of stuff, and even then computer modeling makes for pretty CG movies but not running engines - that is Mad Scientist and Igor work.
Oh, and anytime I can bag on engineers, I do it! It took only a handful of engineers to build the world, the rest just chase part numbers for us mechanics to fix things! :P
So you think your project is taking forever eh? Well you've got nothing on me.....

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Post by Piledriver » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:03 am

I'm curious (and hopeful) STRIDER isn't just a cut-n-paste regular.

Computer-based CFD simulation is fairly well along, but it is VERY good for one thing---

It can help you visualize what SHOULD be happening.

It doesn't replace testing on metal, it's a tool, much like the engine simulators to get you in the ballpark, only perhaps a bit closer to your seat, with an animated map of how to get there ;-)

BTW, I'm NOT an Engineer, I just turn wrenches for a living.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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