Type I DTM cooling system Testing update
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Type I DTM cooling system Testing update
This is the beginning of day four of the cooling system test. The comparative testing has yet to begin as I'm still trying to optimize the DTM and make it the best that I can before we go swapping systems.
I had numerous issues with the test engine in the beginning of testing, and that caused a few inaccuracies that we had to eliminate before we could get good results. Its all taken care of now and the engine is running great and making atleast 177BHP on every power pull. Not bad for almost 90% used parts @ 10:1 on a 2165 TI!
The first day of testing was not good for the DTM. I had only seen one DTM that was completed before and we had to learn the hard way where the vanes need to be placed. It is all trial, test, and error. I was very disappointed to see that on the first day the temperatures on the left cylinder head were over 150 degrees hotter than on the right side! I could see that this was not going to be a "Plug in and play system" like the TIV version was.
Yesterday Brent and Itag teamed it and were able to get the temperatures down almost 75 degrees on the left bank, and still keep the same temps on number 1-2... Thats when we knew that the changes were helping.
Today I'll be designing 3 new vanes, creating 2 air deflectors and going from there with another 7-8 tests and maybe more. We installed a stock system yesterday (just to see where we stood against it)and were already running cooler temps than it did all over the engine even without the DTM totally optimized!
Its taking more work to make the system be the best it can, but it will really be worth it in the end. Joe really did his homework on these systems but just never was able to finish this one.
Just wanted to give an update and let you guys know where we stand with the testing.... I plan on giving a daily summary here on the forum. I already have over 100 bucks in fuel, and 9 dyno hours on the engine.... its just now starting to get fun!
I had numerous issues with the test engine in the beginning of testing, and that caused a few inaccuracies that we had to eliminate before we could get good results. Its all taken care of now and the engine is running great and making atleast 177BHP on every power pull. Not bad for almost 90% used parts @ 10:1 on a 2165 TI!
The first day of testing was not good for the DTM. I had only seen one DTM that was completed before and we had to learn the hard way where the vanes need to be placed. It is all trial, test, and error. I was very disappointed to see that on the first day the temperatures on the left cylinder head were over 150 degrees hotter than on the right side! I could see that this was not going to be a "Plug in and play system" like the TIV version was.
Yesterday Brent and Itag teamed it and were able to get the temperatures down almost 75 degrees on the left bank, and still keep the same temps on number 1-2... Thats when we knew that the changes were helping.
Today I'll be designing 3 new vanes, creating 2 air deflectors and going from there with another 7-8 tests and maybe more. We installed a stock system yesterday (just to see where we stood against it)and were already running cooler temps than it did all over the engine even without the DTM totally optimized!
Its taking more work to make the system be the best it can, but it will really be worth it in the end. Joe really did his homework on these systems but just never was able to finish this one.
Just wanted to give an update and let you guys know where we stand with the testing.... I plan on giving a daily summary here on the forum. I already have over 100 bucks in fuel, and 9 dyno hours on the engine.... its just now starting to get fun!
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- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:53 pm
Cool!
Have you changed oil? Are you staying with the 20/50 or changing to synthetic? Any cylinder or stud oil leaks? Did the stock system have less temp variation between 1 &2 and 3 & 4 than the DTM?
You should receive a box today via UPS. If you pick up the shipping costs we'll be square.
Good Luck!
Have you changed oil? Are you staying with the 20/50 or changing to synthetic? Any cylinder or stud oil leaks? Did the stock system have less temp variation between 1 &2 and 3 & 4 than the DTM?
You should receive a box today via UPS. If you pick up the shipping costs we'll be square.
Good Luck!
- sparkmaster1
- Moderator
- Posts: 1978
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
I wish all the other "suppliers", and "manufacturers" would put forth just a fraction of this kind of effort and testing to make sure a product works correctly before they make it available to the public. Good work Jake and crew. I think somone is smiling at you from above and is very proud of you continuing his work and passion. Tim
Owner Tim's ACVW Engine/Trans Service
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- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Jake,
I'm glad the test is going on! You are definitely doing it right and this is the real only way to test and tweek a design so that you can maximize and improve it's design. Theories are only for "pointing you" in the right direction. In real life, weird things happen that are not taken into account and consequentually, failures and/or deficiencies sometimes result. Sometimes, there are positive results when results are as anticipated or better and that's usually when "Mr. Murphy" is on break or not paying attention. LOL. One of these days I'm going to catch him and I'm going to beat the living hell out of him. I'll even hold him and let all of you have a chance at him!
Anyways, when you're ready, I'd like to use my engine as a test platform to further your test in an actual environment. I do need the cooler enclosure we talked about so I can baseline my 911 engine as it actually is right now. The oil is running a bit hot and I am confident that the Type 1 stock dog-house cooler is inadequate. I can pay for shipping so I can get it here. What should be my maximum oil and cylinder head temperatures? I am thinking of calibrating four separate CHT senders and install them such that by using a rotary 6 or 8 position rotary switch, I can take individual data values at specific intervals and plot all datalines on the the same field to render the temperature plots.
Let me know if there is anything I can help you with. The Las Vegas Monorail engineering testing and commissioning activities are finally slowing down and I should be freed up somewhst fairly soon.
I'm glad the test is going on! You are definitely doing it right and this is the real only way to test and tweek a design so that you can maximize and improve it's design. Theories are only for "pointing you" in the right direction. In real life, weird things happen that are not taken into account and consequentually, failures and/or deficiencies sometimes result. Sometimes, there are positive results when results are as anticipated or better and that's usually when "Mr. Murphy" is on break or not paying attention. LOL. One of these days I'm going to catch him and I'm going to beat the living hell out of him. I'll even hold him and let all of you have a chance at him!
Anyways, when you're ready, I'd like to use my engine as a test platform to further your test in an actual environment. I do need the cooler enclosure we talked about so I can baseline my 911 engine as it actually is right now. The oil is running a bit hot and I am confident that the Type 1 stock dog-house cooler is inadequate. I can pay for shipping so I can get it here. What should be my maximum oil and cylinder head temperatures? I am thinking of calibrating four separate CHT senders and install them such that by using a rotary 6 or 8 position rotary switch, I can take individual data values at specific intervals and plot all datalines on the the same field to render the temperature plots.
Let me know if there is anything I can help you with. The Las Vegas Monorail engineering testing and commissioning activities are finally slowing down and I should be freed up somewhst fairly soon.
- speedy57tub
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:01 am
Jake,
I'm glad the test is going on! You are definitely doing it right and this is the real only way to test and tweek a design so that you can maximize and improve it's design. Theories are only for "pointing you" in the right direction. In real life, weird things happen that are not taken into account and consequentually, failures and/or deficiencies sometimes result. Sometimes, there are positive results when results are as anticipated or better and that's usually when "Mr. Murphy" is on break or not paying attention. LOL. One of these days I'm going to catch him and I'm going to beat the living hell out of him. I'll even hold him and let all of you have a chance at him!
Anyways, when you're ready, I'd like to use my engine as a test platform to further your test in an actual environment. I do need the cooler enclosure we talked about so I can baseline my 911 engine as it actually is right now. The oil is running a bit hot and I am confident that the Type 1 stock dog-house cooler is inadequate. I can pay for shipping so I can get it here. What should be my maximum oil and cylinder head temperatures? I am thinking of calibrating four separate CHT senders and install them such that by using a rotary 6 or 8 position rotary switch, I can take individual data values at specific intervals and plot all datalines on the the same field to render the temperature plots.
Let me know if there is anything I can help you with. The Las Vegas Monorail engineering testing and commissioning activities are finally slowing down and I should be freed up somewhat fairly soon.
I'm glad the test is going on! You are definitely doing it right and this is the real only way to test and tweek a design so that you can maximize and improve it's design. Theories are only for "pointing you" in the right direction. In real life, weird things happen that are not taken into account and consequentually, failures and/or deficiencies sometimes result. Sometimes, there are positive results when results are as anticipated or better and that's usually when "Mr. Murphy" is on break or not paying attention. LOL. One of these days I'm going to catch him and I'm going to beat the living hell out of him. I'll even hold him and let all of you have a chance at him!
Anyways, when you're ready, I'd like to use my engine as a test platform to further your test in an actual environment. I do need the cooler enclosure we talked about so I can baseline my 911 engine as it actually is right now. The oil is running a bit hot and I am confident that the Type 1 stock dog-house cooler is inadequate. I can pay for shipping so I can get it here. What should be my maximum oil and cylinder head temperatures? I am thinking of calibrating four separate CHT senders and install them such that by using a rotary 6 or 8 position rotary switch, I can take individual data values at specific intervals and plot all datalines on the the same field to render the temperature plots.
Let me know if there is anything I can help you with. The Las Vegas Monorail engineering testing and commissioning activities are finally slowing down and I should be freed up somewhat fairly soon.
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- speedy57tub
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:01 am
Jake,
Keep in mind that unlike the axial fans, in a centrifugal fan air enters the impeller axially resulting in it being accelerated by the blades and discharged radially. The airflow is generated by the centrigugal force generated in a rotating column of air producing potential energy and also by the tangentail rotational velocity imparted to the air as it is forced away from the tip of the vanes producing kinetic energy. Understanding this can help you somewhat visualize and predict how the air generated by the fan is going to behave within the volume and the directive provisional constraints of the shroud.
In general, radial fans generate higher-pressured lower-CFM air than axial fans. In other words, compared to axial fans, a definite distinguishing difference is that for radial fans the air pressures changes are relatively more significant and pronounced whereas the CFM rate is relatively less pronounced when it responds to changes made to its operating environment or variables.
As a rule of thumb, radial fans are used when you desire that air move with higher pressure but at a lower CFM rate and axial fans are used when your design is better suited for air moving at lower pressures but at a higher CFM rate.
This explains why the vanes have cause the "extreme changes". When you change the pressure on one side, the other side will also be affected since the pressure within the shroud will attempt to balance. The higher pressured air will attept to seek out a lower pressure to flow to. Your changes have to be long, smooth and subtle. Also, remember that the pressure is due to the velocity of the impelled air. Making and strategiacally locating airfoil vanes similar to the stock ones should help. Prevent introducing any changes which will alter the pressures since the induced changes will be overly responsive!
Phewww, Jake, see what you did, now my darn head now hurts!!! LOL
I hope this helps
Keep in mind that unlike the axial fans, in a centrifugal fan air enters the impeller axially resulting in it being accelerated by the blades and discharged radially. The airflow is generated by the centrigugal force generated in a rotating column of air producing potential energy and also by the tangentail rotational velocity imparted to the air as it is forced away from the tip of the vanes producing kinetic energy. Understanding this can help you somewhat visualize and predict how the air generated by the fan is going to behave within the volume and the directive provisional constraints of the shroud.
In general, radial fans generate higher-pressured lower-CFM air than axial fans. In other words, compared to axial fans, a definite distinguishing difference is that for radial fans the air pressures changes are relatively more significant and pronounced whereas the CFM rate is relatively less pronounced when it responds to changes made to its operating environment or variables.
As a rule of thumb, radial fans are used when you desire that air move with higher pressure but at a lower CFM rate and axial fans are used when your design is better suited for air moving at lower pressures but at a higher CFM rate.
This explains why the vanes have cause the "extreme changes". When you change the pressure on one side, the other side will also be affected since the pressure within the shroud will attempt to balance. The higher pressured air will attept to seek out a lower pressure to flow to. Your changes have to be long, smooth and subtle. Also, remember that the pressure is due to the velocity of the impelled air. Making and strategiacally locating airfoil vanes similar to the stock ones should help. Prevent introducing any changes which will alter the pressures since the induced changes will be overly responsive!
Phewww, Jake, see what you did, now my darn head now hurts!!! LOL
I hope this helps
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- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Speedy,
I totally agree with your last post! I have seen it NUMEROUS times within the testing today!
For instance Joe only used 2 directional vanes in the original design, and one deflector on the right bank (1-2) we had serious issues with the left bank cooling so we added 2 more vanes with long sweeping runners on their trailing edges.
when I did this it COOLED the RIGHT BANK better by FIFTY degrees! My hypothesis was that the added vanes increased pressure to 1-2 by creating resistance to 3-4!
The #1 cylinder runs incredibly cool, like 255 degrees while the others run 325-350. In test #10 I have blocked over 50% of the air that can be channeled to #1-2 and hope that will boost air to 3-4, and actually get #1 a tad warmer...
We'll see!
are you by a phone I'd like to call you. email me your #
I totally agree with your last post! I have seen it NUMEROUS times within the testing today!
For instance Joe only used 2 directional vanes in the original design, and one deflector on the right bank (1-2) we had serious issues with the left bank cooling so we added 2 more vanes with long sweeping runners on their trailing edges.
when I did this it COOLED the RIGHT BANK better by FIFTY degrees! My hypothesis was that the added vanes increased pressure to 1-2 by creating resistance to 3-4!
The #1 cylinder runs incredibly cool, like 255 degrees while the others run 325-350. In test #10 I have blocked over 50% of the air that can be channeled to #1-2 and hope that will boost air to 3-4, and actually get #1 a tad warmer...
We'll see!
are you by a phone I'd like to call you. email me your #
Jake,
Boy you are having fun! Your mods just might work. What needs to be carefully done is that the air has to be "directed" and not be "coerced" or "forced" or else the overall system will react. One thing playing against you are the Type 1 heads. Due to the lesser amounts of open passages, compared to the Type 4 heads, greater flow to resistance is being experience by the system. This makes the overall shroud behave like a plenum. In aerospace, when cooling modules, we actually induced airflow and pressure changes to lessen air allocation to overcooled cooled module while also inducing added air cooling for modules running hot. I recommend you draw a circle with the same dimension as the fan you are using then trace the DTM outline onto a large cardboard. Then sketch the location and shapes of the vanage and directors. Also, where the heads are make a note along that area that "resistance to flow exist there". Now add tangential lines around the circles diameter projectiong clockwise every, say 15 degrees.
Once you have this, you should be able to visualize how the air is moving. By applying what I previously said, you should be able to more clearly see how pressure changes in one area will easily affect another area. You will also be able to see that even with the stock doghouse, 1 and 2 are always at an advantage. As far as the 911 fan, I feel strongly that this is one of the reasons many have not actually done it right. You saw this first hand during your test when you opened additional holes to make the air behave differently within the shroud. The 911 axial fan generates greater CFM but at lower pressures than the radial fan. The pressure changes are not as pronounced and responsive as found in the DTM design.
I hope this helps......
- speedy57tub
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:01 am
Jake,
Boy you are having fun! Your mods just might work. What needs to be carefully done is that the air has to be "directed" and not be "coerced" or "forced" or else the overall system will react. One thing playing against you are the Type 1 heads. Due to the lesser amounts of open passages, compared to the Type 4 heads, greater flow to resistance is being experience by the system. This makes the overall shroud behave like a plenum. In aerospace, when cooling modules, we actually induced airflow and pressure changes to lessen air allocation to overcooled cooled module while also inducing added air cooling for modules running hot. I recommend you draw a circle with the same dimension as the fan you are using then trace the DTM outline onto a large cardboard. Then sketch the location and shapes of the vanage and directors. Also, where the heads are make a note along that area that "resistance to flow exist there". Now add tangential lines around the circles diameter projectiong clockwise every, say 15 degrees.
Once you have this, you should be able to visualize how the air is moving. By applying what I previously said, you should be able to more clearly see how pressure changes in one area will easily affect another area. You will also be able to see that even with the stock doghouse, 1 and 2 are always at an advantage. As far as the 911 fan, I feel strongly that this is one of the reasons many have not actually done it right. You saw this first hand during your test when you opened additional holes to make the air behave differently within the shroud. The 911 axial fan generates greater CFM but at lower pressures than the radial fan. The pressure changes are not as pronounced and responsive as found in the DTM design.
I hope this helps......
- speedy57tub
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:01 am
- Max Welton
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- speedy57tub
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:01 am