bug vs. porsche handling
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- Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:50 pm
bug vs. porsche handling
Jake,and everyone else, being you drive both bug and porsche regularly, can a vw with the right components handle or come close to a 912? I've driven many porsche models (almost every type) except a 912.(And any 66-69 911) Unfortunately, I've never driven a German looker vw or any type IV rat inspired vw. Just how much in thousands of $$ separates the upkeep side of owning/builing a Germanlooker to a typeIV powered 912 and how close in handling can a vw bug keep with the 912. BTW, I've settled my search/desire for a 69 912 over any other 911. But finding one is anther issue for the right price and condition. Now I did have a bug years ago but it was stock and the only high performance it had going for it was a leather grant steering wheel. I miss driving sports cars especially German, and I've just been lucky to have access to them. A vw or porsche Raby powered vehicle is inevitable and I will have it no doubt.
I have alot of Q's to post, maybe I'm in the wrong forum, just like to hear your input on your bug vs. porsche. All the owners porsches I used to drive regularly can't help me cause they never owned or drove a type 4 germanlooker either.
Thank you
Mark
I have alot of Q's to post, maybe I'm in the wrong forum, just like to hear your input on your bug vs. porsche. All the owners porsches I used to drive regularly can't help me cause they never owned or drove a type 4 germanlooker either.
Thank you
Mark
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I've owned both, although I wouldn't call my T4 1964 Beetle a "German Looker". The Beetle has the same basic driving dynamic as an early 911, meaning you drive it by exploiting its flaws and it's the most fun when taken to the hair-trigger edge of its capabilities where it can kill you in an instant. You're certainly not going to save any money going the Beetle route, but the stealth factor is worth every penny. I was branded an "jerk with a small penis" in my 911 Turbo but now I'm "Awwww, what a great dad!" in the Herbie replica, so that's worth something as well.
Dave
Dave
- raygreenwood
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The 411/412 is the same. Though it has a longer wheelbase...a bit of "top hamper"....and is heavier than the beetle, with stiffer and more calibrated suspension upgrades and the rear engine coupled to a very light transmission....and above all overall good balance in all weight areas other than the lump of metal at the rear, the same basic weight biases can be exploited with driving style to handle superbly.
It can be hair raising. Taking a downhill tight sweeper at 65-70 mph has to be thought about in advance. Tires are also ...everything. Controlling body roll over and above all other changes from factory...is everything. You are counting upon the point of momentum change based around the drivetrain weight....to govern when you will shift and when you "might" brake. You can therefore have no un-anticipated rolling/lifting motions with regard to body position and weight.
Because of the gearing...I usually drift into said curve....in 4th...with no brake and a very quick downshift to third....with no additional throttle. You want the rpms high.....like 3500-4000....with no power added. Just maintaining speed and momentum.
The hair raising part....is that you can FEEL....the balance of momentum and weight move from the rear....through the center of the car ....moving toward teh front...wherin you will lose rear traction and start to tail out. When you feel that in teh seat of your pants.....or the back of theseat rails really......you drop into fourth and add power. The weight and enertia balance can be "felt" to return to normal...the goes through teh curve like its on rails.
That same effect can be exploited on the bug. The body roll must be controlled...the shock valving correct...and the gearing right for the power/rpm band. It should be able to keep up with an early 911. Ray
It can be hair raising. Taking a downhill tight sweeper at 65-70 mph has to be thought about in advance. Tires are also ...everything. Controlling body roll over and above all other changes from factory...is everything. You are counting upon the point of momentum change based around the drivetrain weight....to govern when you will shift and when you "might" brake. You can therefore have no un-anticipated rolling/lifting motions with regard to body position and weight.
Because of the gearing...I usually drift into said curve....in 4th...with no brake and a very quick downshift to third....with no additional throttle. You want the rpms high.....like 3500-4000....with no power added. Just maintaining speed and momentum.
The hair raising part....is that you can FEEL....the balance of momentum and weight move from the rear....through the center of the car ....moving toward teh front...wherin you will lose rear traction and start to tail out. When you feel that in teh seat of your pants.....or the back of theseat rails really......you drop into fourth and add power. The weight and enertia balance can be "felt" to return to normal...the goes through teh curve like its on rails.
That same effect can be exploited on the bug. The body roll must be controlled...the shock valving correct...and the gearing right for the power/rpm band. It should be able to keep up with an early 911. Ray
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Having driven both I can say that in stock form the 911/912 can whip up on a Super pretty easily if it's near stock... Of course.
Having driven Beth's German Looker after the suspension and brake upgrades I can also say that it easily whips up on my 912 in both categories. The Bug is lighter and even more nimble than the 912.
Having driven Beth's German Looker after the suspension and brake upgrades I can also say that it easily whips up on my 912 in both categories. The Bug is lighter and even more nimble than the 912.
- raygreenwood
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A tightly tuned 411/412 can whip up on most "average" 914's...and almost all bugs and ghias. The main thing it has in its favor...is longer wheelbase. If the wheelbase on a vehicle is too short vs the height of the chassis....and then coupled with spring rates that may be too tight....in order to compensate for lack of proper shock damper tuning.....the frequency of oscillation coupled with the enertial changes through cornering are what can hurt you.
I guess if I had to state a place to start....it would be...pick a grippy tire of the proper width...FIRST. At the same time...get your spring rates correct. Get tunable shocks...and tune rebound and compression rate around the tire ...AND the alignment geometry...AND the spring rates. A marginally stiffer than stock spring or torsion bar setting.....that is correct for whatever rate you may have lowered the vehicle to should be set at the same time as the tires. Everything should be tuned around one or two FIXED points/decisions in the suspension.
Lack of really perfect rate shocks on the bugs and ghias shorter wheelbase are still two of the limiting factors in superb handling.
But... the short wheelbase of the bug and ghia.....if the car can be lowered enough....giving a better height to length ratio.....could be superb. This is what the 914 has over the bug as a starting point. Again....all in the combo. Ray
I guess if I had to state a place to start....it would be...pick a grippy tire of the proper width...FIRST. At the same time...get your spring rates correct. Get tunable shocks...and tune rebound and compression rate around the tire ...AND the alignment geometry...AND the spring rates. A marginally stiffer than stock spring or torsion bar setting.....that is correct for whatever rate you may have lowered the vehicle to should be set at the same time as the tires. Everything should be tuned around one or two FIXED points/decisions in the suspension.
Lack of really perfect rate shocks on the bugs and ghias shorter wheelbase are still two of the limiting factors in superb handling.
But... the short wheelbase of the bug and ghia.....if the car can be lowered enough....giving a better height to length ratio.....could be superb. This is what the 914 has over the bug as a starting point. Again....all in the combo. Ray
- yilon
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:01 am
One problem nobody has addressed is the aerodynamic characteristics of the various cars. At high speed, a 911 is a solid platform that seems to invite more speed. The only times I ever got my Super Beetle up to 100+MPH, I had to drive at 110% concentration and I still didn't feel safe.
I have not driven a high performance 914, but I feel it would be a lot closer to a 911 than to a Beetle.
JMHO.
I have not driven a high performance 914, but I feel it would be a lot closer to a 911 than to a Beetle.
JMHO.
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That´s because you have never had the chance of turning the inside out of a well prepped SB or a standard for that matter.yilon wrote:One problem nobody has addressed is the aerodynamic characteristics of the various cars. At high speed, a 911 is a solid platform that seems to invite more speed. The only times I ever got my Super Beetle up to 100+MPH, I had to drive at 110% concentration and I still didn't feel safe.
JMHO.
_ correct ride height, good tire choice, correct alignement, good suspension, all the way around, and of course sufficient power, will make a beetle cruise at 100 - 110 with ease.
A properly set up beetle will, on a narrow and curvy course whip at least 80% of all new cars. On the freeway, no way Modern technology and aerodynamics simply overrules it.
In fact, my old ´73 SB was more steady at 80 mph than at 50 mph., mostly because of the actual setup of course.
T
- raygreenwood
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Farmer you are correct...and that is also with many cars. Its the point I was really trying to get at. All of the cars we are working on have aerodynamic and weight distribution imbalances. The 914 is actually the best of them as far as not actually creating as much lift. It is flatter on top.
The round top and flat bottom of the 911,912,beetle, ghia...and to some extent 411/412......all actually create lift at specific speeds. The changes to teh nose on the 412 as compared to the 411....from round to angular...dumped a lot of high speed nose lift.
The 356 and the 911 were heavily tested for drag....but none of these vehicles were really tested for lift stability in those days. Part of the car starts to lift...changes the angle of attack.....creating more lift....more drag.
If you can find out the deficiences and strengths of the vehicle you have....you can usually....not always...but ususally find a combination that makes it handle well. Not always cheap or simple....but usually do-able. Mny of the changes are very subtle.....proper shock valving, progressiveness of spring rates, hardness of bushings, stickniness of tire, width of tire, height of chassis. This is also why I say that modifying for handling vs modifying for looks rarely go hand in hand.Ray
The round top and flat bottom of the 911,912,beetle, ghia...and to some extent 411/412......all actually create lift at specific speeds. The changes to teh nose on the 412 as compared to the 411....from round to angular...dumped a lot of high speed nose lift.
The 356 and the 911 were heavily tested for drag....but none of these vehicles were really tested for lift stability in those days. Part of the car starts to lift...changes the angle of attack.....creating more lift....more drag.
If you can find out the deficiences and strengths of the vehicle you have....you can usually....not always...but ususally find a combination that makes it handle well. Not always cheap or simple....but usually do-able. Mny of the changes are very subtle.....proper shock valving, progressiveness of spring rates, hardness of bushings, stickniness of tire, width of tire, height of chassis. This is also why I say that modifying for handling vs modifying for looks rarely go hand in hand.Ray
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I drove a '75 super beetle for 10 years and loved it! That was the first year with rack&pinion (I can never go back to a box now). I didn't do anything to the suspension other than install KY shocks and clamp two coils together on the front springs using $2.00 (1988 $'s) clamps to lower the front end a little. The IRS is way superior to any swing axle, regardless of upgrades. I never ran any special tires, which would have brought the car alive even more.
It was EASLIY the best handling street bug I ever drove, and I have driven a lot. I spanked a lot of sports cars on off ramps and twisty roads with that car. Light, nimble, and fun to drive.
The suspension is pretty similar to a 911T, 912E, etc.
It was EASLIY the best handling street bug I ever drove, and I have driven a lot. I spanked a lot of sports cars on off ramps and twisty roads with that car. Light, nimble, and fun to drive.
The suspension is pretty similar to a 911T, 912E, etc.
- samcat
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- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 12:01 am
All about function over form. Looks play a part too, but usually they are kept simple.redhopper35 wrote:I feel like an idiot, but German Looker???
The best handling, right size tyres, stiffened chassis, upgraded brakes, balanced, aerodynamically improved and big engined bugs around Should be able to give almost all modern vehicles a damn good scare, if not a thrashing.... (thats what it means to me anyway)
I have upset more than my share of modern car drivers, and that was with my old 1300cc engine on twisties... Now I have a 2270 I can follow it through on the straights too
Pop on over to www.germanlook.com for a chat You wont look back (other than to see what you just beat).
ʇɐɔɯɐs
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Bug Vs. Porsche handling
Not to piss you all off but... anything you can do with the super you can do with the 912 and you'll end up with better results. The 912 was a sport car to begin with. The super was an economy sedan. Whatever enhancements you do to bring the super up to stock 912 standards or better could be done to the 912 with even better results. Other than "Herbie" no Bug could hold a candle, handeling wise, to an "eqaully". equipped porsche. Check out SCCA results over the past 40 years. Markodarte said he wanted a true sports car if that's the case the porsche is no brainer, if he wants a sleeper for the street by all means trick out a super. BTW markodarte don't limit yourself to a "69" just because it has a 2.5 inch longer wheelbase. This upgrade was mainly to enhance the handeling of the 911 which was to squirrly in it's short wheelbase form. The 912 was much better balanced with it"s stock 4 and a Raby T-4 won't hurt that at all ( I think the T-4 is even lighter than the stock 616, original 912 engine in the DTM mode ). I have a '66 with a meager 1600 dual port T-1 waiting to get a Raby T-4 upgrade, and even in this configuration it is a kick in the pants, it's stock otherwise and no stock super with this engine could keep up on the curves and my car is 8 years older. I also have a 914 (recommended for most bang for your buck handlingwise, even more so with upgrades, it's my autocross baby) and a 412 ( more like a sport sedan 320 style handlingwise) but you did'nt mention these as considerations so I'll leave at that. O.K. bug guys send me the hate mail , I asked for it , Don
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Bug vs. Porsche handling
Forgot to mention. A '66 912 wieghs 2095lbs. some 300 lbs. less than the 912E and pretty damn close to super with a type 4.( I got going and could'nt stop ). Don
- yilon
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- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:01 am
I am aware that a properly setup Super Beetle will handle well in a static situation. However, IMHO, the Super Beetle is dangerous in high speeds in certain dynamic situations.
With a steady wind, the SB will handle. However, the SB is tall, with a lot of side area. When you pass a truck or exit a situation where the terrain blocks a side wind, the SB gets very squirrely at high speed [even at medium speed.] A 911/912/914 does not have the large side area and handles sudden side winds in a much more stable fashion.
With a steady wind, the SB will handle. However, the SB is tall, with a lot of side area. When you pass a truck or exit a situation where the terrain blocks a side wind, the SB gets very squirrely at high speed [even at medium speed.] A 911/912/914 does not have the large side area and handles sudden side winds in a much more stable fashion.