Oxyboxer oil starvation?

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:16 pm

Upon disassembly I discovered some markes on #3 intake lifter, and I enclose a couple of pics.

Anyone seen this before? Can it be a result of metal parts circulating inside the engine?

Image
Image

AMBROSIA
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by AMBROSIA » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:53 pm

What about the odd feature of the wbx engine that allows oil to recirculate directly from the bearings back to the pump bypassing the sump?
I thought I read somewhere that it allows more aeration to build up under sustained high revs and that some builders drill the return gallery so it feeds back to the sump instead.
I also would not rule out the rods being out of round.

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pocketrocket
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by pocketrocket » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:14 pm

Are the lifters Scat out of the box?

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Piledriver
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by Piledriver » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:50 pm

AMBROSIA wrote:What about the odd feature of the wbx engine that allows oil to recirculate directly from the bearings back to the pump bypassing the sump?
I thought I read somewhere that it allows more aeration to build up under sustained high revs and that some builders drill the return gallery so it feeds back to the sump instead.
I also would not rule out the rods being out of round.
Not really an odd feature, most engines oil pumps have the recirc/pressure control built in.
Later T4s had the same setup, the WBX inherited that design.
It is not by definition a bad design. For high RPM use it may even be highly beneficial.

If your pump is not huge you can bypass the recirc passage.
Without it, the pump has to always suck all the way from the case, this may lead to cavitation.

Those lifters are starting to flake/spall. heat treat bad likely.

The stock 2.1 rods can get quite oval over ~80k miles and all too frequently try to escape, usually succeeding.
If you didn't at least measure them that would be my prime suspect.
Take a look at ovality the ones that didn't die: they will all be about the same up until the bearing seizes.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:13 am

pocketrocket wrote:Are the lifters Scat out of the box?
No, JPM

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:16 am

Piledriver wrote:
AMBROSIA wrote:What about the odd feature of the wbx engine that allows oil to recirculate directly from the bearings back to the pump bypassing the sump?
I thought I read somewhere that it allows more aeration to build up under sustained high revs and that some builders drill the return gallery so it feeds back to the sump instead.
I also would not rule out the rods being out of round.
Not really an odd feature, most engines oil pumps have the recirc/pressure control built in.
Later T4s had the same setup, the WBX inherited that design.
It is not by definition a bad design. For high RPM use it may even be highly beneficial.

If your pump is not huge you can bypass the recirc passage.
Without it, the pump has to always suck all the way from the case, this may lead to cavitation.

Those lifters are starting to flake/spall. heat treat bad likely.

The stock 2.1 rods can get quite oval over ~80k miles and all too frequently try to escape, usually succeeding.
If you didn't at least measure them that would be my prime suspect.
Take a look at ovality the ones that didn't die: they will all be about the same up until the bearing seizes.
Thanks,

The rods are EMPI branded H-beams, and I will measure them all for ovality. They have only done about 3k miles

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Piledriver
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:28 am

Those should also be checked for size, as well as the assembled/torqued rod+bearing<> crank to verify clearance.

"EMPI quality" is... usually dubious.

CrMo rods should not oval out, I was referring to the stockers from a wbx or stock T1 rods used on a stroker.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:45 am

Time for an update, I guess :)

First of all, I received a set of new rods, and I measured them for ovality, and they all check in at less than 0.01mm so that's golden. (These are Scat I-beam with ARP2000 bolts)

Then I measured the crank journals, and I am not sure whether my rod numbering is correct, but #4 is the one with the dead bearing:

Mains
#4
39.98
39.98
39.98


#3
54.97
54.97
54.97

#2
54.98
54.97
54.97



Conrod
#4
54.94
54.92
54.86

#3
54.99
54.99
54.99

#2
54.99
54.99
54.99

#1
54.99
54.98
54.99

So to me there is no doubt that the crank either need a regrind of at least the rod journal, so I might have to look for a new crank instead... Since I had thie current crank balanced to "touring car standards" I will need to redo that if I regrind one of the rod journals anyways...

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pocketrocket
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by pocketrocket » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:41 pm

Is the oil pickup in the stock location? I move the oil pickup down to the bottom of the sump, as the WBX block is at a angle so about 1 quart of oil sits in the bottom of the angled sump that can't be picked up. Here's what I do on all the drag engine's I build that don't rev over 7,500 RPM. First picture of stock pickup
DSC01048 (Small).JPG
2nd picture. of the pickup lowered in the sump area so I can get most all the oil to the pickup.
DSC01049 (Small).JPG
3rd picture picture of the top of the pickup.
DSC01050 (Small).JPG
4th picture of the bottom of the pickup. You can se the stock nut welded to the strap to the new pickup.
DSC01052 (Small).JPG
This should keep the engine from oil starvation even in a car that corners all the time. The stock pickup location is the main problem. Yes the welding is not done on the lowered pickup just tacked till I got it where I want it, then I will tig weld it together. I do this to all the street engines I build air or water cooled. 5th picture of the finished pickup installed.
DSC01058 (Small).JPG
last picture of the adhesive I use 907 to seal the tube to the block.
DSC01056 (Small).JPG
Rocky
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AMBROSIA
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by AMBROSIA » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:07 am

Excellent info Rocky, thanks for sharing.
I wonder why VW placed the oil pickup where they did?
I'm certainly planning on sealing the tube to the block as there's no o-ring provision for some reason.
What's the 907 sealant you refer to, Resbond ?

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pocketrocket
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by pocketrocket » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:52 pm

search on ebay for manley 40180

AMBROSIA
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by AMBROSIA » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:29 am

Thanks Rocky, just need to find a UK supplier.

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:55 am

Thanks, Rocky. Yes on this engine, the pickup was indeed in its stock locatation.

I am installing a dry-sump now, so this will be "less" important, but perhaps a good idea anyways?; in order to ensure that the sump in the engine is completely drained for oil?

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andy198712
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by andy198712 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:14 pm

how much oil will you run? (just interested)
sorry to hear about the engine failure :(

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Stripped66
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by Stripped66 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:45 pm

AMBROSIA wrote: I wonder why VW placed the oil pickup where they did?
Because the Wasserboxer engine in a Vanagon could never accelerate fast enough to uncover the oil pick-up to begin with. :lol:

My serious guess is that the pick-up location helps ensure sludge and debris would not obstruct the pick-up, since it sits much higher and forward with respect to the lowest part of the sump. I'm certain VW engineers understood their market to include the most negligent owners to ever maintain an automobile...

I had oil starvation problems with the stock pick-up on my turbo'd oxyboxer under hard acceleration even at low RPM. Dry sump addressed that problem, and now I'm back to wet sump using Rocky's Autocraft sump conversion.

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