Oxyboxer oil starvation?

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grelland
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Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:48 pm

Guys,

I had a build thread here a couple of years ago, and things worked well the first season (2014) but last summer, I only covered a few hundred miles before I took it to a track event where I managed to damage it quite serverey it seems.

I did not have the time to open the engine before now, even though this happened in June...

Anyways, I do not quite know what happened, but here is what I have found so far:

First of all, a short video from the event where it all happened:
https://youtu.be/l9S_JB3rU58

We had a blast as long as it lasted ;)

Then to the engine:

First I took off the heads and P/C's and as we can see, one of the con-rods have a lot for play in the large end:
https://youtu.be/Zqm2FOUPAu4

I also noticed that the engine turns ca 1 cm by hand before it goes 'clank' so I suspected that one of the main bearings had an issue also.

Then I split the case, and this is what I found in the sump:
lagerrester.jpg
and again, the con-rod on #2 is not well:
https://youtu.be/MTfQz5BZ9QI

I also noticed that the rearmost main bearing was stuck to the crank:
https://youtu.be/QVfcay030aQ

Then I took off the con-ron, and the bearing is shot, and the rod clearly shows sign of excessive heat:
rådelager1.jpg
rådelager2.jpg
smeltet.jpg
varm råde.jpg
After heating the rearmost bearing I got it off, but this is clearly not well also:
bakre lager.jpg
ovalt hull bakre lager.jpg
So my suspicion so far is that my excessive cornering has starved the suction tube of oil, and this has killed the bearings...

I have a CB dry sump pump on my shelves for this purpose, so does anyone have any advice for me as to whether I should go ahead and mount he dry sump system, or may there be other problems in my setup?

The current oil system is quite stock, with a sandwich plate with a thermostat between the case and filter that feeds an external cooler mounted above the gearbox. I have had good oil pressure at idle, but sometimes when warm, I have though to my self that I would have liked the pressure to be higher, but I have not been 100% sure that my gauge/sender is ok. I have never seen the oil pressure light flicker at idle when warm.

So guys, any suggestions for improving my oil system before I put it all back into the car?

Roy
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Last edited by grelland on Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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58Dub
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by 58Dub » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:17 pm

wow... sure looks like lack of oil.
when you had the car on the track... did you ever notice the oil press drop... or high oil temps?

I think the dry sump would fix your concern, but if you dont want to go that route, you could try making a new oil pickup and move it to the very lowest point of the sump. maybe add some dams to try and keep oil at the pickup.

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:21 pm

I did not notice any press drop, but then again, I was not too focused on the oil light, I am afraid...

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58Dub
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by 58Dub » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:44 pm

my plan is to go with a dry sump when I finally get mine together. will you need to change your crank pulley to clear a dry sump pump?

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:49 pm

I already have a pulley that clears the pump. Along with a 356 generator pulley in order to maintain the speed on the fan

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Piledriver
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:52 am

If you can swing the cost of the dry sump setup, do so.

All things considered its reasonably cheap insurance, like tool steel lifters.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:07 pm

The dry sump setup goes in, but I have received some advice from one of my Norwegian friends indicating that since it was con-rod no 2 and the rearmost main bearing that seems to have taken the beating, he proposes that Oil starvation normallly kills the flywheel end of the enging first, so he is indicating that it might be the no 2 con rod that had an issue causing it to overheat and then damaging the rearmost main bearing.

Anyone with WBX/oxy knowledge/experience that could comment on that theory? I was using EMPI-branded 5.5" H-beam rods.

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Piledriver
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:22 pm

It has some merit, #2 rod and #4 main get oil first.

I have seen that sort of failure when a FRAM oil filter element fails, or a foof gets by it on statup.
It usually "gets" #3 main too to some extent.

The filter is typically bypassed on cold starts

#4 gets its oil through a restriction "plug" at the nose of the case.
I have seen that in-plug restriction plugged up with garbage, i have always removed the restriction entirely, as T4s/WBX have real pulley end seals, and the bearing already has a restriction.

Its possible it was two somewhat unrelated failures, what was the rod bearing clearance and side clearance?
#4 main to crank? (all on assembly of course)

Unfortunately you cannot just assemble things when Chinese parts are in the mix... You never really could, but you could get away with more in the old days of all German parts that usually fit.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:36 am

Thanks. I will look up my notes as to what the clearences was on assembly. I will also look for possible garbage in the restriction plug, even though if I find it, it may have ended up there as a result of this; and not necessarily casuing it

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:08 am

Image
Surge did it, the taper on the Wasser sump won't suffer low oil, ideally, move the pickup into the oil pool, if wet sump, run an extra ltr of oil for racing, preferably dry sump and cry once.
Here you can see the tapered Wasser sump, my motor is raised by inclining 6* and dry sump, so it's almost level with the surface..

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:56 am

Thanks,

not sure I understood; you said surge did it; but at the same time you say wbx wont suffer low oil...

Anyhow, if i use dry sump I should be golden :)

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:49 pm

Sorry Grelland, should have said " won't tolerate low oil level".

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:51 pm

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:48 pm

buildabiggerboxer wrote:Sorry Grelland, should have said " won't tolerate low oil level".
thanks, then it makes more sense :)

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grelland
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Re: Oxyboxer oil starvation?

Post by grelland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:10 pm

Piledriver wrote:It has some merit, #2 rod and #4 main get oil first.
#4 gets its oil through a restriction "plug" at the nose of the case.
I have seen that in-plug restriction plugged up with garbage, i have always removed the restriction entirely, as T4s/WBX have real pulley end seals, and the bearing already has a restriction.
It starts coming back to me (it has been a few years since assembly...), but I think I actually removed this plug and put in an aluminum threaded one; I will have a look tomorrow.

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