Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

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Dan Dryden
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Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:52 am

Intro:
After cutting my teeth on a type 1 EFI turbo engine for the last 10 years, I've decided to stop fighting the laws of physics (mainly heat and head temps) and accept that watercooled is the way forward when running a boosted engine.
With a lot of work and development I managed to get my little 1776cc type 1 motor to produce 194BHP / 222lbs @ 21psi boost. It works great on the road and provides a massive smile per mile, but struggles with heat whenever I take it onto a circuit track and give it some sustained use of the "go pedal". :twisted:

I've seen the success of Buildabiggerboxer, Ambrosia, Fastback and Marcomansi, amongst others, with their WBX conversions and can't go on ignoring it!
Having just picked up a 1990 2.1i DJ engine, I'm now starting to plan how I'm going to go about the conversion into my '72 super beetle.

I've researched loads on here and other forums and I'm starting to get a plan together, which I will create a build thread for when it actually starts to happen (probably Autumn 2016).

First problem with my build plan:
What I'm really struggling with at the moment is exhaust header choice for the turbo. I've not found anything straight off the shelf. I currently use the CB hideaway header but don't think this will be suitable for the new engine due to it not placing the turbo high enough (see requirements below) and clearance of a dry sump pump. Can anyone give me some pointers?

Things to consider:

[*]I plan to use a dry sump pump, so need to consider clearance of the pump body. (Favourably looking at Thorsten Pieper's pump at the moment).

[*]I would like to mount the turbo higher than the sump and rely on gravity to drain the oil from the turbo back into the case.

[*]I want to run a water/air chargecooler. I'm not afraid to use the package tray area behind the rear seat but need to retain the rear seat for when I take the kids out on a Sunday drive. :wink:
I wonder if the over-tranny mounted turbos would enable me to keep the rear seat?

Torque is king!
The car will be predominantly street driven with the occasional blast around a circuit.
Because of this, I don't plan to run a huge Holset or T4 turbo. I will be looking for low down power and torque delivery and keeping the torque curve as long and flat across that dynograph as I possibly can.... I think that will give me a great street car..... and if I can boast a BHP number of around 300 that would also help! :wink: :lol:
A friend ran a Borg Warner EFR 6258 (T25 flanged) on his 1.8 20V turbo golf (360BHP) and I was very impressed with the way that performed, so I'm leaning towards using one for this build.

So, enough waffling. Can anyone recommend an exhaust header?
Pictures and examples are always welcome! 8)

Many thanks!.

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:58 pm

http://vwspeedshop.com/em/enginemanagement.html

Looking at these pictures of the cb header, I could perhaps modify it to raise the turbo higher into the engine compartment.....

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:42 am

Test post, keeps failing to post.
DIY it Dan, nothing made is any use to us. Mine is a street max, it goes right on over the ARPM pump, maybe use one as a pattern and feed the turbo with a longer down pipe off the central flange?

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:01 am

Yes, U-bending it back into the engine compartment is an option I've considered. I want it to look as well packaged as possible & like the systems which stay within the confines of the bodywork through to the tail pipe.

westypoo
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by westypoo » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:40 am

heres my wbx in my 75 super. its a 2.1 bone stock with a crappy t25 frame ebay turbo on it. im going to be adding air/water intercooler and thinking of going with an even smaller turbo. im thinking of a ko4 setup as the t25 .48a/r trim is still laggy for what im looking for. im running the cb header that i extended up into the engine bay, and im running turbo drain into the lower valve cover. hope this helps. love seeing more and more going with the wbx motors. there awesome. i love mine.
Image

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:34 pm

Hi westypoo, I saw your setup on another thread and thought it was a good solution. My only concern is the lack of space the CB header offers for a dry sump pump.
I have seen this header though, which I could do the same extension on but it offers a lot more space for a ds pump:

Image

Image

I'm struggling to find who makes and supplies them and also whether they can ship to the UK... :?

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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:47 pm

The "turbo in fender" setups we have seen are also excellent from a packaging standpoint.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:58 pm

Piledriver wrote:The "turbo in fender" setups we have seen are also excellent from a packaging standpoint.
Yes, from a packaging perspective they're great but I'm not so sure about their height (or lack of it) in relation to the engine. The example I saw had to use a seperate pump to scavenge the oil back from the turbo. I really don't want to over-complicate it, so gravity drain is the only route I'm willing to consider.
Last edited by Dan Dryden on Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:08 pm

I've also just seen this old thread where somebody has reversed a CB buggy header and used it as an over-tranny header with a little modification, but enables the retention of the rear seat.
It would require a little boxing-in but would give lots of room in the engine compartment and multiple options for chargecooler positioning...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137094&start=0

AMBROSIA
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by AMBROSIA » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:36 pm

I had Turbo Thomas make me a side exit exhaust, although I butchered the tail pipe pieces together all on my own :lol:
Image
He has a spare block that he uses for mocking up.
Otherwise I would opt for the cb turbo header and rotate the rear flanges to fit but you will have to relocate the oil filter.
Welcome to the club :D

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:57 pm

AMBROSIA wrote:I had Turbo Thomas make me a side exit exhaust.
He has a spare block that he uses for mocking up.
Otherwise I would opt for the cb turbo header and rotate the rear flanges to fit but you will have to relocate the oil filter.
Welcome to the club :D
Hi Iain, I'm glad you've chimed in as I've been reading through your threads! :D
Bit of a bummer on the cam follower bore. Maybe Thorsten's aluminium ones will be the answer.

I'll keep Turbo Thomas in mind but after costing up the way I'd like to build this engine I need to keep costs down wherever I can. I think if I can use a header which is available off the shelf and use it as a base it should keep spend to a minimum.
I hear what you're saying about the CB header and the oil filter - something I hadn't considered (westypoo, how have you got around this?). At the moment I'm currently leaning towards using this one, which would locate the turbo in my luggage compartment behind the rear seat: http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=7611

I would need to box it in and ensure it's insulated to stop rear seat passengers getting a hot back :lol: , but the added bonus is that it will give lots of room in the engine compartment for header tank, chargecooler etc. and won't impede the oil filter and oil lines from the dry sump pump. It also locates the turbo nice and high to give plenty of oil drainage.

I was thinking originally that I'd perhaps try to run the engine in stock form as I receive it but with turbo and efi, but thought better of it. Especially as it is quite a high mileage motor. I may aswell do it right first time.

I think I may even start another thread on how I should spec the engine and get peoples thoughts on what I should & shouldn't do...

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Chip Birks
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Chip Birks » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:30 pm

Dan Dryden wrote:Hi westypoo, I saw your setup on another thread and thought it was a good solution. My only concern is the lack of space the CB header offers for a dry sump pump.
I have seen this header though, which I could do the same extension on but it offers a lot more space for a ds pump:

Image

Image

I'm struggling to find who makes and supplies them and also whether they can ship to the UK... :?
This is the A1 header. A link to a phone number was posted shortly after you inquired about it on the other thread a few days ago.

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by Dan Dryden » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:45 pm

Thanks Chip.
I am still at planning stage right now so don't want to make any time-wasting phone calls to A1. (Especially as I'm in the UK)
It's a shame they don't list this one on their website with price etc.

westypoo
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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by westypoo » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:41 pm

I had the issue of hitting the oil filter as well, at first I tried to run an external oil filter. But I just didn't like all the extra lines. I also am like you and I want to keep things as simple as I can. Witch is why I've tried an air/air intercooler, but it has failed. So I'm going to have to face fact and surly add an air/water Intercooler to keep my iat's at bay. So what I ended up doing is deleting the factory water/oil cooler to gain room. I then went down to my local parts store and looked for an oil filter that was that same but shorter. I found one and have been using that since and have never had any issues. I also reduced my up-pipe size down to 2" cause I want my car to be in boost quickly. Thus doing so I also gained even more room for the oil filter. I soon will be running a good external unit with a oil cooler as well.

As an added note, I've been boosting my wbx fully stock motor. They will handle a lot, even with a high milage motor cause that's what I'm running now. My motor has seen 10psi regularly and sometimes 15psi. Over here in the states our 2.1 motors came with only 8:5.1 c/r so they do well with boost.

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Re: Exhaust header options for 2.1 WBX EFI Turbo engine

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:14 pm

Packaging is key, I get cars in that must have been built while under the influence, but It comes with the job, the stock Wasser filter is surrounded by the myth that nothing else will work, and it's big and clumsy. End of story, and most installs are very busy around the pump/filter/sandwich plate area, and then you have to get all the hoses routed, it has to go, I use compact oil filter Mann number 712/52 from a polo, don't be afraid to use even smaller compact filters, I've used mini Toyota filters successfully, nearly all late Japanese models now use tiny mini filters that will fit, and all thread sizes for different filter nipples and the correct locking nuts are commonly available.

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