RIP WBX

Here's the place for info on converting to a Type V motor!
Passatman
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Passatman » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:14 am

Jurgen if we can get 7mm valve stem valves with new valve guides then the flows on the heads will be up without you doing much work.

The best that i want from my heads is that they flow well and keep the airspeed up.

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:38 am

Ive never seen the point using ' unknown spec' valves and modifying them, i have my racing valves made here, any spec you like, hollow stem, single groove, hardened tips, whatever, they cant be improved on either for quality, flow or weight. speak with Paul and tell him what you want, send either a pattern or a drawing.http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/sourcehtml/RE ... alogue.pdf
check stock list and sizes...

Passatman
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Passatman » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:47 pm

I had a look at the listing and found a valve that was within the 122.5mm standard length for the waterboxer but it had 9mm valve stem.

How much did you spend for your valves. Oh! by the way thanks for the link i know this will help the original poster and anyone else that is interested in changing valve size in the waterboxer engine.

Steve Arndt
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Steve Arndt » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:47 am

Aircooled.net sells the guides for 7mm valve train FYI.

My T4 heads I bought from Oliver Knuf have 6 or 7mm stems, I forgot which.

buildabiggerboxer
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:50 pm

Pauls valves get cheaper by quantity,, BUT, they are surprisingly well priced even for a small one off rebuild set, the quality, weight and performance is so good, price is not a factor, they are the best, also dont forget the wasser exhaust guide o/d is larger then the intake o/d before you order any guides, i find the stock wasser intake guide o/d is a slack fit for racing, not so much a guide problem directly, the guide bore is often o/sized and they can move easily in hard use, and can be drifted out cold, usually an oversize o/d is needed, at least for German heads, AMC heads are better in this respect, but for racing i use a 'collared' guide.

turner
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by turner » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:15 am

New year,new engine :D
I bought a 2,5l low miler Öttinger wbx last year.
For higher compression (11,5-1)the water jakets and liners are cut down 2,6mm.
The old ported heads get bigbored,new intake/exhaustet guides, new TRW valves with a special cut installed.
The dents got laserwelded.
before
Image
after
Image
Image
The stock rods will be lighter and shoot peened.Who knows wich arp bolts will fit?
Image

The piston got a special modifications by Jürgen.
Image
As next the case will get a special treatment,cut all sharp edges and some polish.
The Öttinger heads will get more attachment the next year(if enough money)

Turner

AMBROSIA
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by AMBROSIA » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:26 am

The stock rods will be lighter and shoot peened.Who knows wich arp bolts will fit?
Bit of a dead end with stock rods as there are no direct replacement suitable bolts.
Machining the rods for suitable ones is also difficult, so I have been reliably told.
Some guy's, myself included, use T1 style aftermarket rods and machine the small end bushes to 24mm or use custom pistons.
Where did you source TRW valves as i'm after a set?

Iain.

turner
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by turner » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:17 am

Hello Iain,i contacted arp,with a datasheet they are willing to look which will fit.
A good friend from me works for Kolbenschmidt (KS) as a seller.All 8 costs me 40€ :oops:

cheers Turner

AMBROSIA
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by AMBROSIA » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:48 am

A good friend from me works for Kolbenschmidt (KS) as a seller.All 8 costs me 40€ :oops:
40 Euro! very lucky :)
I will need to find a KS supplier.

Thanks for the info.

Iain.

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fastback
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by fastback » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:17 am

i used ARP type1 rodbolts on my stock wbx rods.these are easily available
they have been holding up with ~450WheelHp and 7800 rpm so far :)
i can't undestand the hate for stock WBX rods.
im my experience they are strong, escpecially when it comes to dealing with torque
been using stock rods on 7 wbx turbo engines now with only one stock 1,9 rodbolt failing at high RPM+ boost
1,9WBX actually uses type 1 bolts are torqued non-strecth som can be re-used
the 2,1WBX is same size bolts but are torqued with strecth from factory and must be replaced

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Piledriver
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:37 am

Yes, there There is hate for the WBX rods.
They were a very poor choice for the 2.1, the motor is otherwise excellent and should last far more than 60-100 K miles.

I have never seen the bolts being the root cause of the problem on a stock motor failure. Victims, yes.
On a hipo motor the bolts may go first, but on stockers, the rods have a fatal flaw.

In a stock MV (2.1) the big ends stretch out with 112hp by 60K miles like a hooker after Fleet Week, and are generally want "to be free" by 100K, at least in US usage*. Mysterious "oil pressure issues" with the warning system buzzing and flashing blinky lights at you usually started around 60K miles.
(* Basically pushing a shed down a freeway at 70MPH all day long at ~4500 RPM)

The vast majority of 2.1L WBX blocks I have ever seen have a nice, big hole in them, and it generally wasn't due to a dropped valve or running out of oil

In closely monitored race usage massaged stock rods may be fine, but as a good quality CrMo rod with 3/8" ARP 2000 bolts is available off the shelf, just needing rebushed... what is the point?

The stock rod IS essentially a tweaked 311- forging, and while stock T1 rods are quite awesome for incredibly more than what they were designed for, used on strokers of any sort tend to have a limited lifespan (of course most t1s have a comparatively limited life span anyway)
Note the 1.9s were not remotely as prone to "oil pressure problems" like the 2.1s were.

There's just no point in rebuilding the stock rods, possibly ESPECIALLY for a long-life build...done properly is barely even cost competitive, and you end up with the original issues.
Last edited by Piledriver on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fastback
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by fastback » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:00 am

i have had my hands on a few ventilatet wbx cases also. :)
high milage stock engines ,
but i do not belive the main reason is that the rod it self is so weak.
more that these are good old used enignes suffered from way to long interval on oil changes leading to rod bearing wear and with that, a rod failing comes soon. people have heard a clacking sound , asuming it was a bad hydro lifter .. until there is a hole in the case

the thing i worry a bit about rebushing a 22mm h-beam to 24mm is the lack of meat around the pin
the steel quality i'm shure is a bit better , but with so less meat i'm not convinced :)
WBX rods are very beefy around the pin , for a reason. strength only and or a "balance" thing?
type 4 2.0L h-beam have 24mm pins don't they ? and has type1/wbx big end size?

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Piledriver
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:03 am

Hbeams tend to be thin, I have some T4 ones I'm leery of using for that reason, and they were made that way by EMW.
Of course the stock 2L T4 rods are built like they were intended for a tank diesel pushing 40 PSI boost...

Scat I beams have plenty of meat around the pin, and can be had in a variety of lengths.
Of course I realize by the time they get to where you are they are far from the ~reasonably cheap stock rod upgrade alternative they are here.

I have yet to figure out why everything seems to cost ~double when it crosses the Atlantic, or even when parts from China come from the other direction.
Last edited by Piledriver on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fastback
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by fastback » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:10 am

yes the I-beams are more beefy , but are these "so much" better than the german forging?
would prefer a H beam though as these are race proven in a lot of engines.
planning a new WBX engine , so considering the type 4 h-beam/arp bolts as a reasonably priced alternative to pauter carillo etc.

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Piledriver
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Re: RIP WBX

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:18 am

fastback wrote:yes the I-beams are more beefy , but are these "so much" better than the german forging?
would prefer a H beam though as these are race proven in a lot of engines.
planning a new WBX engine , so considering the type 4 h-beam/arp bolts as a reasonably priced alternative to pauter carillo etc.
I beams are race proven in a lot of engines as well,
Carrillo/Crower/Pankl will merrily sell you a set made either way,for any RPM range/use.
I will agree H beams look cool, but I doubt it really matters in the end.

The stock German forging is awesome for being ~1040 steel or so, similar to the awesome stock cranks.

4130/4140 is a wee bit stronger, and they are beefier where needed as well, with bigger, ~infinitely better bolts at hand.
Also the option for 2" journals and far better coated bearings off the shelf.

For boost or long life, beefy is good.

The EMW T4 rods are only 50mm journal and only the stock length is 24mm pin:
The forgings they use have no more small end meat than any of the H-beams for T1s on the market AFAICT.
The stock rods are either 127mm or 131mm, so likely too short for any of your uses...
...although IIRC Toyota Supra @JZGTE (TT) rods were discussed at one point on the type4um as workable
(53mm journal, reasonable length, ~utterly bulletproof and flippable bolt/nut setup).

I think it was discussed here: also some good bolt upgrade info.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 88&start=0

I saw some bugpack T1 rods once which appeared to have more meat around the bushing but it has been years since I really looked at a set.
Pretty much a T4 house here.

The Crowers I bought for the T4 Oettinger//Alfing 74 crank were I beams, with 24mm pins and have loads of steel around the pins.
55mm 1.7 journal. They will see boost.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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