Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bearings

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3literboy
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Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bearings

Post by 3literboy » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:56 pm

OK, I threw a rod in my Oxyboxer with type 4 main bearings flanged crank, split bearings, and destroyed the case. The split bearing will not support a 250 horsepwoer motor and wears out after a single pass.....


I now have a pristine 2.1 liter case that has new lifter bores, case savers, and the 101.6mm bores cut. I have a set of 2.2 liter Chrysler cleavite bearings and want to do the center thust set up. I have heard that celica bearing will work also.

two of the Chrysler bearings will work , but the rear main bearing journal I/D is 2 mm bigger and requires a larger bearing. I would rather have an adapter built that would use a Chrysler bearing at the rear main. One scenario is securing a type 1 thrust bearing 1mm over with counterbored screws and then line boring to Chrysler 2.2 liter main bearing O/D specs. This way I could reuse the small bearing and use all Cleavite Chrysler bearings when I do a bearing change.

The center bearing thrust could be done with shims etc. The line bore is basically 1 mm smaller than a type 1 standard line bore with bearing tangs instead of dowels

The thickness of the journal can be widened up by cutting thrust shoulders on both sides and then make custom shims like old school harley shims only larger to support the 2.2 liter chrysler thrust bearing. The shims could be installed with countersunk screws and then machined to size with a boring bar...Then one cuts .015 off of each side of the crankshaft center main thrust surfaces

Brother's VW machine did the initial case work at less than half the price.

Anyways, I need some ideas on bearings and who might do the work. I did contact the fella over in Walla Walla, but he didnt like the idea that I sent the case to Brothers VW machine firts....

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Piledriver » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:23 pm

The split bearing will not support a 250 horsepwoer motor and wears out after a single pass.....
...
There are many, many people running t4 main bearings or even smaller t1 mains at ridiculous power levels for decades.
The bearings are far more than up to 250HP and one pass.

It might be a Really Good Idea to figure out what the REAL problem was.
Oiling or clearances live at the top of the list.
(Basically are the list unless your crank was all ...noodly)

Detailed pictures of the carnage, please?
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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by 3literboy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:12 am

I just talked with Steve Tims and Greg. He is getting over 250 horses out of a type 1 case. Before he went to the Jaycee center thrust conversion and metal backed bearings, he was getting very few passes out of a split bearing. The type four split bearing is just aluminum and gets wiped out after just a few hammer drops.

I ran two sets of type 4 bearings. I increased ny compression from 8.5 to 1 to 12 to 1. I got 3 passes before the oil pressure dropped at idle to zero. As we recall, I set up the Bugpack two stage pump and the Jaycee external pressure regulator. I dealt with oil pressure problems last year.....

So, unless you have run two sets of type 4 bearings, you really cant be an authority on this one.....

The latest and greatest is the center thrust conversion and metal backed clevite bearings or the BMW adapter bearings. The only bearings in the silverlite set that is worth using is the small one and the metal backed center main bearing...

I am now thinking splitting the 2.1 liter rear bearing and using that.



Aluminum VW main bearings are good for street application and lower HP drag cars. . Unless they are all tri metal style bearings like the clevite P series, they are inappropriate for race application.

Dude, i talked with Potter, Tims, and others. I am running a heavy mendeola, heavy car, heavy oxyboxer and dropping the hammer at 7000 rpm out of the hole. Once I went to 12 to 1 with Steve Tims ported 910 heads 101.6mm and an 88mm stroke, I broke clutches and beat out the thrust in 3 passes. Every major racer has dumped the split bearing for metal backed premium bearings and the center thrust conversion.....

I am not asking about oiling problems. The cam was pristine, and the rod bearings were perfect. The rear main was wiped out.

I just need to know who has a few ideas on being able to use exclusively Clevite main bearings (2.2 liter chrysler)..I need an adapter for the rear and center so i can run Clevites.....

Potter big blocks use Chrysler or Ford bearings.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Piledriver » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 am

You do realize Mahle has been making T4 bearings again, tri metal, steel backed etc.
(The std std set lack steel backing on the center main, but that should be workable)

In T4s (pushing as much power NA and far more on boost) those same bearings seem to hold up just fine...
I cannot comment on the Silverlines as I have never had the urge to try them.
They seem to have lived down to their reputation.

Many folks have put 400++ HP through the std WBX setup.
250 HP is nothing.

The std late WBX steel thrust bearing setup does look like a better design.

Please let us know what your fix is.

If you are using a flanged crank, they have issues, there have been many threads on that here and at TOS.

If you find those adapters I want to buy 3 of them...
Just in case the Std T4 bearings dry up.
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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Steve Arndt » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:09 am

Pyle,
I think he may be having the problem with the split #1 flywheel bearing setup that is required with T1 style flanged cranks. Is that correct 3liter?
Shag55 has been working on a new style thrust setup.
Steve

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by 3literboy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:05 pm

Yes the number 1 Flywheel split bearing setup is a problem. It wont take the load and distorts after only a few passes. I think a a nonflanged type 1 crank with a type 1 bearing and 3 shims is a better set up...I want to use my type 4 center main flanged crank, but the bearings are an utter hassle. Presently, I am leaning towrads, an 82mm C/M stroker crank all VW journals, 5.5 Hbeams 3/8 rod bolts, and a wedgemated flywheel. One secenario is to linebore the case to 1.5mm over and just run good type 1 bearings. At least this way, a bearing change is less than $50 bucks.

I may just save my 88mm Bugpack flanged type 4 main crank for another project.

I guess Rocky Jennings does the center thrust conversion, but he wont touch my project because I had Brothers VW machine do all the other work, and I purchased my own Chrysler bearings.

The 2.1 liter bearings are superior to the Silverlite bearings.

The Clevite 2.2 liter bearings are $35 a set via RockAuto.com, and they have a massive thrust area.

In order to use the flanged crank, the seal area has to be welded up also in order to cut to 4 inch.

When I ran a type 1 with comp eliminators, I never had issues with type 1 bearings or the thrust. No oiling problems, no nothing. The wedgemating thing didnt bother me....As it is, You can get an Oxyboxer prepped at Brothers Machine for less than $500 bucks, and just run type 1 stuff.

It gets sickening to run 3 different sets of bearings when one set of type one bearings will do.....

I think I will go back to a type 1 wedgemated crank and .060 over firt thrust old school metal Leves. Screw the flanged crank...

I cant get the good RPM out of an 88 stroke anyways.

The Avery case will take Chrysler bearings

Tell me if Shag55 makes any profess on bearings etc.....

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Steve Arndt » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Here is Shag's post about his thrust setup.
http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemach ... 781.0.html

If I had an oxy setup I would try to stay with the wasser flange and thrust. DPR can make 82 stroker cranks with a T4 center mains welded up.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Piledriver » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Yeah, it wasn't clear from the first post (or i missed it) that you had a flanged setup, i figured all t4 mains.

The flanged setup has always had problems, it's not really the bearings per se as they work ~peachy on std setups.
(OK, maybe not the Silverlines)

On a dedicated racing engine, the cost of good T4 mains alone probably justifies switching to some sort of commonly available steel backed bearing if they are going to be frequent replacements.

Can the wasser block be bored for the larger Ford/whatever mains?
Last edited by Piledriver on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by 3literboy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:39 pm

I talked with Sachette and Tims. Greg Tims is using all metal backed type 4 cnter bearings with the Sachette center thust. I couldnt pull up your link. Can you just pull it off the site and then post it here.

I can get the Sachette bronze shims for $100 and do the job at "Northwest Connecting rod" .

Instead of 2.2 liter bearings, I am now thinking type 4 bearings with a center thrust, or Chrysler bearings and a type 4 bearing.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by 3literboy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:38 pm

http://home.comcast.net/~mlawless29/centmain.html

I checked out Mike Lawless's center thrust set up. I think the 2.2 liter thrust bearing set up wont be the quality of the bronze bushing. I think I will use the Chrysler bearings and a type 4 bearing at the rear. I may just order the sachette bushings and then send the case to Northwest Connecting rod and have hime linebore the case for Chrysler bearings and a type 4 rear bearing. I think I have it handled.....

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Steve Arndt » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:19 pm

Shag55 is on this site, we just need to get him in this thread.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Steve Arndt » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:20 pm

There is nothing wrong with the T4/wasser flange. I don't understand why the standard flanged cranks aren't made with this setup instead of the huge domestic style flange that makes it too large to fit a full circle bearing.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by 3literboy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:15 pm

http://images.whisystems.com/smartpages ... 25MM-1.jpg


As you can see above, the 2.2 liter bearings have a much larger thrust surface and all metal backed (Trimetal)...

Sachette wants $500 just to install the bushings. Thats quite a bit..

I do have a linebore bar. i could just cut the case for the side shims myself. I have emailed a Bronze shim place to see if they have some shim stock laying around.

I wonder what this Mike Lawless fellas wants for a set of Bronze shims.

Sachette wants $100 for just the bronze shims.

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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:05 am

Do you have a late case?

The std late Vanagon setup looks pretty good...you noted it yourself.
(maybe it would work better on #3? Don't know)_

Consider a dual disk clutch?
Much less thrust load needed for same power...
Considering what you have into it/looking at already that might be a very minor expense.

Might help, lots.
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Re: Oxyboxer?????i2.2 liter Chrysler bearings or Toyota bear

Post by fastback » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:14 pm

i have been running std WBX bearings in my last engines (late style 3 piece) with 228m stage 3 and circle track racing , no bearing issues at all.
i suspect something else is wrong here.

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