Which oil pump to order---early or late?

[Piledriver]

Actually ordering all my bits today, and need to verify which oil pump to order...

Early or late T1 ?
(flat or dished cam type?)

I suppose the dished has a longer input shaft and could always be ground shorter/pressed into the gear some if required...

Is a 30mm too big on a WBX?

If so I plan on getting a Melling cast iron job and o-ringing the body. Figured out how-to make a jig easy on a lathe. (will post if it works)

[jan72]

Actually ordering all my bits today, and need to verify which oil pump to order...

Early or late T1 ?
(flat or dished cam type?)

I suppose the dished has a longer input shaft and could always be ground shorter/pressed into the gear some if required...

Is a 30mm too big on a WBX?

If so I plan on getting a Melling cast iron job and o-ringing the body. Figured out how-to make a jig easy on a lathe. (will post if it works)

Late T1 oil pump ('71-'79). The shaft on the early type pump doesn't engage the slot in the camshaft. I checked with a 30 mm brazil oil pump and it's perfect. Not sure yet if it doesn't interfere with the vanagon jug (I want to use this), because the pump is 4mm "fatter".

[Piledriver]

Good point about the motor mount bit, I'll have to look at that.

I'm going to run a steel/iron cover regardless, EMPI flogs a steel "billet" one that's not too thick...

(They sell an iron pump too, but I'm not too thrilled as to what it's internal tolerances might be, knowing "modern" EMPI)

Thanks!

[Piledriver]

The 30mm Schadeck I have does actually clear the mount bit, even with a CB finned cover. (just)

Now I just have to get it back out without dorking it up...

[tencentlife]

Early or late T1 ?
(flat or dished cam type?)

I don't get why you're asking this. Haven't you chosen your cam first? That will determine the answer to this. Stock wbx were deep dish (after '71 style pump), but any aftermarket cams will be shallow (pre-'71 style). Once you have the cam, you have to use the pump that matches.

Cast iron pumps are a no-no, if you ask me (and many others). The expansion rates of aluminum and CI are so different, you may have sealing problems at the crankcase face, and worst of all leakage of suction and pressure at the pump ports when the engine is hot, when you can least afford to have disruptions in flow. Aluminum pump bodies have the same rate of expansion as the case, so the fit isn't disrupted as it thermal cycles.

You should match-port the pump to the case to maximise flow, especially on the suction side.

I wouldn't dare use a pump with a non-keyed driven gear. We just went over this at the Samba, where a guy had a fairly new GoWesty 2.2 motor, with weird oil pressure problems. Once the motor was hot, he would have less pressure the higher he revved. After checking and ruling out everything else we could, we finally deduced that the driven gear was slipping on the shaft. He pulled out the pump, and sure enough, that was the cause. CB's pumps have keyed gears; I don't know who else's. GW should get smart and use keyed pumps. They don't cost any more than press-fitted ones.

I swapped a 30mm pump into a fairly healthy motor and did back-to-back tests. The only time the 30mm pump produced substantial extra pressure was cold, when you sure don't need it. Gains when hot were negligible, maybe 3-4psi. With impeller type pumps in general, higher volume does not necessarily result in higher pressure, andthe hotter it gets, the more true that is. A clearance pump, not positive-displacement, will only raise so much pressure regardless of volume.

They do fit under the engine carrier if you use a flat steel cover. You would probably need to dimple the water crossover pipe to clear the upper studs, which are longer. I had to. But I wouldn't bother with a high-volume pump after the tests I did. Concentrate more on getting tight clearances within the pump. That's where higher pressure comes from.

And if you're concerned with having good pressure when hot, control temperature. That's the only thing that's sure to work.

[Piledriver]

I asked because I wasn't sure, and this is a great place to ask.

Good points.
I'll consider the keyed pumps, or keying the Melling.
(Roll pins would likely work well, as likely would a small touch of TIG, likely ultimate fix)

The (real) Melling has tighter INTERNAL tolerances than any aluminum bodied pump hot or cold, and I will be o-ringing the body. (I wouldn't consider it otherwise, I had to figure out a jig to do my CB drysump pump, loose pump syndrome in the chosen cases, the pump OD is just too small... Considered thin rubber coating the OD like late Mexi cam plugs.(at least around the ports))

Bus Boys has the best prices by far on both the Melling pump ($44) and good price on full 2.1 gasket sets ($75)

I have several planned uses for the extra flow...

The cam is also chosen: Webcam regrind of stock cam, 86/1600DP (whatever they call that) 108 LC, 7 degrees retarded, 1.4:1 rockers.

Based on some guesstimates, cam timing will be ~:
(At .050")

EO 33 BBDC
EC 0 (TDC) (I cant read my notes well, I suspect ex closes a little later)
IO 10 BTDC
IC 60 ABDC

(Ex=.424 lift, wish I could get more...in a 220 degree pattern, In= .455 lift)

I'll massage the exhaust port a bit.

Miller Cycle, but should run just fine NA until I get the little VF14/RJ11 turbo + IC installed
(Turbo from Dodge Colt GTX?)


Static CR with .040" deck is 10.5:1, we'll see how tight I can (practically) get it... IIRC stock is a tad more, ~.060".

Dynamic CR, using the KB-Silvolite calculator is 7.63:1. STOCK (MV) CR using a 48 degree ABDC IC event and 45cc dish (not sure if exactly right, but likely close) would be 7.22:1... The CBX coating on the crown and reduced deck should compensate well for that 1/2 point of CR...

(Anyone have _real_ specs on a 1600 DP cam?)

[tencentlife]

Ahhh, OK, so this is for your Miller cycle motor. I thought those cam numbers looked pretty odd. Cool. I'm interested in how this works out.

Anyone have _real_ specs on a 1600 DP cam?)

Have you been here? It's all about aircooled, but he's compiled a wealth of data:

http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/caml%3Dlift_dur.htm

Dynamic CR, using the KB-Silvolite calculator

Haven't heard of this, but I'd like to know where to find it. Is it online somewhere?

Stock deck clearance usually works out to 1mm. Piston flush with cylinder top, and the top seal sets the deck. Stock piston dish is 47cc, head 15cc. I think the 1.9 heads had 13cc, but any late replacements by VW and AMC are the 2.1 version.

As to your Melling pump, I'm curious how you intend to o-ring it. Will you lathe a groove into the "nose" of the body, so oil can't leak from the body/crankcase tolerance back into the sump? I guess that would be a workable solution to the differential expansion issue, for as long as the rubber remains pliable. The leakage from the output thru the tolerance back to the inlet would be negligible, because it has to travel such a long path. Without an o-ring seal there, it is a straight shot sideways back to the sump. Sucking air thru that gap would be the biggest worry, but the o-ring should isolate it from that problem.

Spot welding the pump's driven gear to the shaft would be wise, I think. I like the keyed approach, but it's a lot of machining to set up for just one pump. Using the welder would be quick and painless.

I have several planned uses for the extra flow...

I understand you'll have a take-off for your future turbo. Will you also use an oil cooler in a parallel circuit?

[WBX Man]

Btw. tencentlife now speaking of oil pumps...

You once promised to post pictures of your "Oil galley upgrade/ modification" and make a "how to" guide..

Any news !?

Best regards
Rasmus

[tencentlife]

Hey, Rasmus.

I don't remember promising an article on it, but maybe I did. I must have been high. The only time I remember commenting on it was this:

"On the pickup tube I added about a 2" extension with an o-ring groove to seal in the pump inlet passage past where the overpressure galley cuts in. Drilled thru the relief hole in the control valve bore to let overflow go directly back to the sump, and an extra drain hole lower in the galley. I can't imagine why they did that mod, it's unlike any engine I've ever seen. I deal with pumping systems sometimes and you just never want to have any irregularities on a pump suction line. The oil pressure would often be irregular before, and it drove me nuts knowing that the suction side was that way, so now at least I can rule it out. It's early to judge and this engine is very tight, but it seems like pressure is more consistent than it was before."

As for pictures, I didn't have a working camera as I built the motor, and now the mod is inside the case so until I do another one, pictures aren't a possibility. At least I have a good digital camera now.

How to do it: my memory may be a bit vague, it's been nearly a year, but this is what I recall. It was pretty simple.

I pulled out the oil pickup tube. Getting it out is a real bitch, since it's pressed in and the elbow in it makes it hard to direct the force. I think I grabbed it near the oilpump end with some visegrips, and used a mallet to drive it out.

I didn't have a lathe at the time, but I do now and this next part could be easily made on a lathe from some tubing instead of from plumbing fittings like I did.

I measured the ID of the pickup tube, and found it to be slightly smaller than the OD of standard 1/2" copper pipe. I needed to extend it about 2" in total. I cut a piece of copper pipe about 1 1/2" long so about 3/4" will fit within the pickup. I reamed the ID of the pickup a bit until it was a good fit. I used a 1/2" plumbing coupler and fit it to the end of the short pipe, so it went down flush to the tip of the pickup. Another 1 1/2" length of pipe went in the end of the coupler, and another coupler slid onto that until it left a 1/8" gap between the couplers, making a groove for the o-ring. The gap would be determined by what thickness o-ring you have.

Clean, flux and solder all the parts together, including the pickup tube. Lead solder seems to work better with mixed metals. Then saw off the end of the new tube extension leaving only about 1/4" of the second coupler. The solder left a nice meniscus within the o-ring groove, but I followed around with a 3/32" round file to make sure it had a rounded contour within the groove.

Fit the o-ring, lube it well, and gently drive it into the bore. It was a pretty snug fit. I plugged the inlet hole at the oil pump opening, and blew into the pickup tube, and couldn't detect any air leakage, so it was a good fit.

Rather than go by my fuzzy memeory, you'll want to measure down into the pickup bore in the case, to see how deep an o-ring needs to sit to be past the cutout where the cross-galley merges with the oil pump inlet passage. Pretty simple.

To allow relieved oil to re-enter the sump, I drilled out the plug on the rear face of the left case half, where the relief piston bore originally had it's exit hole drilled. I used the drill size they originally used, so as not to alter the exit flow when the relief is working, but drilled further on and right out the forward wall of the crossover galley. I also drilled a hole at the bottom of the crossover galley near the case midseam, so oil could drain out the bottom of the galley as well.

I realised later that the galley is pretty well submerged in oil when the engine is static, but I don't know how low the level falls once the motor is running and all passages are pressurised. But the extra hole lets things equalise.

That's it, not too complicated. I don't really know whether the way they changed the case to return oil to the pump inlet causes any complications to the inlet flow, but I always suspected it might so I was dying to rule it out. At any rate, it was unnecessary, and I'm glad I changed mine back to a straight-thru system like every other engine I've ever seen. I think cycling the oil round and round may save a smidgen of hp, but that oil will get hotter and hotter and entrained with air bubbles, so overall what they did seemed to me to be a bad idea.

[Piledriver]

Just to be clear, intill a week or so ago, I have had the same response as to the cast iron pump.

Wally made me think about it, and with the o-ring (or maybe a thin rubber coating) it is actually a FAR better pump, esp when hot. Melling really should make them with o-ring.

Finding that most of my T4 cases had loose oil pump opening fits changed my mind about the whole thing.

Other uses--- Turbo, and either oil squirters or T4 style notched rods. (I think Jake notches them in 3 places on each side) The factory oil cooler on a WBX is actually a nice piece... but I will also be running a bypass filter.

Dynamic compression ratio calculator
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Some related reading material:
http://kb-silvolite.com/news.php?action=read&N_id=33

As to the oiling mod you describe on the WBX, the late T4 cases had the same recirculating setup, but easier to get out the pickup.

It appears if you use an early T4 pickup, the o-ring seals past the return port. (at least on a T4)

I'm trying to work out a seal with a flange or smaller o-ring to eliminate the restriction, as teh T4 has a big, fat o-ring, and reduces the pickup down to ~11mm at that point, which I think is bogus.

I'll have a look at the copper tube fittings as you tried.

[tencentlife]

Wow, you may be the first person I've heard of that is putting a high-volume pump in for the right reasons. I responded to your post that way because everybody I've ever seen bring it up was hoping to boost pressure.

I wonder if it's doable to make do-it-yourself oil spray notches in rods. Can't be too complicated. Just have to know where and how deep.

Thanks for the links!

[Piledriver]

VW released a tech bulletin on it for T4 engines.
All T4 (at least) engines SHOULD really have them notched.
(It's here, somewhere, simple u-shaped notch)

I think VW suggested a "file"...

I stumbled across an old post by Jake ~yesterday that said where he puts his... Think it was in his old forums.

Just make sure they don't have sharp edges, don't hork up the balance, and it should work fine.

'm also looking at another mod that should actually deliver more pressure to the bearings...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... ize#782756

[Piledriver]

tencentlife

Your pickup mod rocks.
(Cussed at the pickup for 20 minutes before the following wiggling by hand, finally skerred it

Only took me about 20 seconds to get the pickup out once I got pissed, big screwdriver between the pickup and the case baffle and some tri-flow, bit of rotational wiggling and it worked its way out quick.

Didn't take much force, didn't even really dent the pickup, 2/3ds of which I cut the face off of, just leaving the lip and screen, debating ditching the screen. (soaking in carb cleaner overnight to dissolve the tar crud in the screen I couldn't see under the bottom shroud)

I'll be drilling thru the existing relief passage with whatever drill size works out for a 1/8" pipe plug for more bypass capacity, and (maybe) be running a slightly stiffer T4 spring (or maybe taller piston), depending on what the oil pressure comes up at with 0W20 Havoline(+ 1/2 bottle of GM EOS) and all my extra internal oil "leaks"

I tapped the case plug out from the inside once I got the pickup out to properly clean and deburr the passage for orings. Will go back in with a little red locktite.

I discovered something gnarly about how a WBX oils the lifters, solid lifters probably won't "drop in" and work right with the cam oiling lifter bore groove, and might not supply enough oil to some of the rockers on the street regardless...

...as 3 of them ONLY get oil via the wide/deep groove in the HYDRO lifter next to them. (indirectly oiled, which may explain some of the issues with the hydros) the solids have a tiny ~3mm wide groove...

I'll be turning them tomorrow in a lathe to copy the hydro lifter OD profile unless I come up with something brilliant in the meantime.

[tencentlife]

Thanks for the props, Pile. I have to say that, having thought about your comments for awhile, you've got me sold on adding an o-ring to my oil pumps as well. Now that I have a lathe in my shop, that's something I can do myself. I've always noticed how loose a fit the oil pump bodies are in the wbx case. I understand that it's best to pull out the pump studs and install an o-ringed pump in the case while it's split, so I'll work that into my build routine.

On the pickup mod, I'm also thinking about popping out the big rear plug on the suction side passage, and machining an insert that would drop into that passage and accomplish what my earlier copper plumbing work did without having to get the pickup out, which is indeed a real bitch (of course, with the rear plug out, driving the pickup tube out would be much easier anyway). A simple sleeve that would press in and cover the crossover galley port would do the trick, along with the relief drilling that that makes necessary elsewhere.

Good advice about the lifters. I like hydros for street engines, but if I ever want to use solids I'll have to look carefully at that. But aren't the solid lifters oiled that way as well, by oil going around the lifter body in the groove and passing into the port to the adjacent bore?

I've been thinking about a fairly radical mod: Building a direct oiling system to the rockers, like external lines that come right off the main galley that go right into the rocker chambers and pressurise a bore up the center of each rocker shaft. Then the pushrods could be plugged, lightening them since they'd be full of air instead of oil, and there would be less pressure lost at the lifters. Lots to work out with that idea, but you could deliver cooler oil more consistently to the rockers, which might do a better job of valve and top end cooling. It's either a brainstorm or a brain fart, hard to know which.

[Piledriver]

The problem with the solids is that the oil groove is ~4mm wide, so the groove and the hole don't line up most of the time.

The hydros have a MUCH wider "groove", if memory serves me right more like 13-16mm, more like a third of the lifter body, for 100% oiling.

It's actually good practice to pull that plug anyway to allow cleaning of the passage.