Lifters?

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:02 pm

Now, the intention was to get a set of ceramics to remove the potential wear issue when running a webcam with non stock profile.. They also would have reduced the valve train weight considerably allowing reduced spring pressure.. all good for life... and as the engine wont be spun above 5500 would all work nicely..
So, the ceramics are not available........ Blame the Irak war...
What can I do now? ridk a set of clean and nice used std lifters?
Buy a new set from VW?
Fit a set of solids? (I dont mind doing the adjustments.)
Or do the bush the case and fit type 1 lifters?

What should I do? I dont want the cam/lifters to eat each other and ruin the other parts on the engine!!

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:17 pm

If you put in your used set, get them reground if you want your cam to last. Otherwise, get a new set. Make sure to run it at 2000+ rpm for at least 20 minutes upon first startup to properly mate the cam and lifters, whatever you do.

If you're concerned with cam/lifter wear for longevity, use a lower lift cam and make up the lift with higher ratio rockers. For the same desired lift at the valve, it takes some load off the valvetrain without needing heavier springs.

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:50 pm

I am in a similar boat. One thing that I would like to hear about is why not SLR a set of used lifters?
This seems to help with the type-1 cam & lifters, any reason to suspect that our type-1 cam & type-4 lifters wouldn't work.

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:30 am

Where would I get the lifters reground? I am in Europe remember..
Anyone know what the lift and durations of the std wbx cams are?

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:41 am

This is what I want to use.. type 1 cam

LIFT 455/.422
DURATION 280/276
DURATION @.050 242/240

I have a carburettor engine, which has fairly small area and long intake runners, its going to be 2.1 or 2.2L what I am after is torque.. if it wont pull above 5k, fine... as long as the 1200-3000 is fat....

Any predictions on how that would work?
Will clean up a set of AMC heads I have, nothing fancy, just iron out the flashings and smooth the flow..

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:28 am

In your case since your in europe, I would have the case bushed for type 1 lifters and use a set of Ahnendorp's Mahle (!!) stock mechanical type 1 lifters with wbx dual springs.
He does the bushing machine work as well so the type 1 lifters don't hit the lifter housing on full cam lift.

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:51 pm

And since I've given you similar advice over in the T4 forum, if you choose to use a T1 grind cam, you'll need to use T1 lifters. The face of the T1 lifter is much larger than a WBX or T4 lifter; if you use a WBX or T4 lifter (granted, *if* the radius works with the cam), your effective duration is going to be much lower than what the cam is advirtised as.

tencentlife · Post by **tencentlife** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:04 pm

Sideshow, what is "SLR"?

Anyplace that can regrind a cam should be able to regrind the lifters, too. If you have trouble finding someplace competent, you'd probably be better off just getting new solid lifters for what you'd spend to send work to the states.

I miked up a cam that came out of a "stock" AVP rebuild. Can't guarantee it was the original wbx cam, but it miked as:
Intake: .302 lift, 334 duration, [email protected]"
Exhaust: .286 lift, 324 duration, [email protected]"

Not in new condition, so take that into account. But note the looong ramp-up for the hydro lifters.

Stock wbx lift was confirmed to me to be about .300", not a split-cam.

Seems to me the cam you're considering won't likely deliver until pretty high revs. I've got a 270degree cam in my Digifant 2.2, it's [email protected]". The torque peak is at 3200-3400rpm.

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:52 pm

Steve Long Racing (I think) SLR is a guy that re-curves the face of the lifter for better compability with todays cams. Jake does this also, I don't know anyone else famous. Feel free to correct if I get any facts wrong.

It is still kind of black art.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:07 pm

I thought SLR mend something like S...Lifter Resurfacing

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:09 pm

Stripped66 wrote: . The face of the T1 lifter is much larger than a WBX or T4 lifter; if you use a WBX or T4 lifter, your effective duration is going to be much lower than what the cam is advertised as.

Is this really true? I thought it didn't matter

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:11 am

Wally wrote:
Stripped66 wrote: . The face of the T1 lifter is much larger than a WBX or T4 lifter; if you use a WBX or T4 lifter, your effective duration is going to be much lower than what the cam is advertised as.
Is this really true? I thought it didn't matter

A picture is worth 1000 words.

In a nutshell, advirtised duration may remain unchanged, but duration at 0.050" will be greater with a mushroom lifter (Type 1) than a flat tappet (Type 4 or WBX).

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:46 am

Nice pictures!
Yeah, I see your point but....the type 4/wbx lifter on the right bottom would run for about 500 miles before the cam would be toast...
What I am trying to say is that the second picture isn't allowed in reality. If your cam is so wild that it gripes the outer edges, you're screwed!
That is also one of the reasons that Webcam strongly advises to run type 1 lifters on their longest duration cams. Its even on their website.

Therefore, I still very strongly believe that it doesn't make a difference in real life - surviving - combinations.
Of course, you may not agree

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:59 am

Thanks peeps
Yes I realised I was cross posting but some TIV input is always good.

Bugger, the cam was suggested to me as an ideal option as its designed for a restrictorplate 1600 engine for max 6000rpm.. the idea was that it will produce a wide torque band with a bigger cc engine..

So what should I look at then?

I have seen heard of wbx being run on engle 110/120's, even with the stock hydro lifters, is that disaster waiting to happen?
one on a 120 had twin 40's and went like stink, but was not too good down the bottom end.. so I have discounted that cam..

Looks like I will be back to a stock DG cam and ratio rockers then!!

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:01 pm

51MAN wrote:
Looks like I will be back to a stock DG cam and ratio rockers then!!

Why? Considering you've been asking around about ceramic and roller lifters, is having your lifter-bores rebushed for Type 1 lifters too much of a hassle?