Im looking at purchasing a empi engine case from cip1 for a 1835 build.
I want to start with a new engine case. looking at the empi cases due to machine work already done and ready to build.
Im not sure of the quality of the case.
does anyone have any experience with this case?
whats the cons to this case?
help with engine cases
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Clatter
- Posts: 2034
- Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:01 am
Re: help with engine cases
Cons include weight, and less cooling..
But,
The biggest,
Is that you have to check 100% for accuracy every dimension, and possibly correct if needed.
The list of issues found with aluminum aftermarket cases is long, - couldn't list them all.
From machining burrs blocking oil passages,
Pressure relief bores not sized right, or drilled deeply enough,
Oil pump hole wrong size,
Passages wrong size, or not connecting with other passages..
Basically, all of the issues China/Aftermarket parts are known for...
You will have to measure/check pretty much everything is you are going to want to be able to assemble it and trust it.
But,
The biggest,
Is that you have to check 100% for accuracy every dimension, and possibly correct if needed.
The list of issues found with aluminum aftermarket cases is long, - couldn't list them all.
From machining burrs blocking oil passages,
Pressure relief bores not sized right, or drilled deeply enough,
Oil pump hole wrong size,
Passages wrong size, or not connecting with other passages..
Basically, all of the issues China/Aftermarket parts are known for...
You will have to measure/check pretty much everything is you are going to want to be able to assemble it and trust it.
Speedier than a Fasting Bullet!
Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853
Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853
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SC3283
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:10 am
Re: help with engine cases
Clatter, while what you say should be done with ALL engine builds no matter what case is used....all old used VW cases require the almost all same checking....right?
70, 74 beetle, 81 Chenowth, 66 Fastback, 83GTI, 85GTI, 02 GTI, 72 Std Beetle
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7087
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
Re: help with engine cases
No, that's one benefit of a good used German case. Everything has been proven to fit.
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SC3283
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:10 am
Re: help with engine cases
Bruce, fit at 1 time...but with 40 yrs use....1 best check everything even on an original used case...dont yah think?
70, 74 beetle, 81 Chenowth, 66 Fastback, 83GTI, 85GTI, 02 GTI, 72 Std Beetle
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kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: help with engine cases
With this said...what do you guys think about purchasing a case from the classifieds based on pictures and the owners word?
There is an AS21 case that I have come across that apparently has never been line bored, has no rot in the sump, and has no spreading (assuming this means the inner bearing webs). Pictures look ok, just a little oxidation. Would any of you gamble on this with $200? I never seem to have any access to local cases. They just don't come up that often.
There is an AS21 case that I have come across that apparently has never been line bored, has no rot in the sump, and has no spreading (assuming this means the inner bearing webs). Pictures look ok, just a little oxidation. Would any of you gamble on this with $200? I never seem to have any access to local cases. They just don't come up that often.
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7087
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
Re: help with engine cases
No.
A common problem with aftermarket cases is that the oil passages don't line up with the pump body, you have to check them. But with an old German case, they always line up perfectly. How is their alignment going to change with age?
The oil pickup tube on a Brazil case is crap, it doesn't line up properly with the screen. Much worse with a deep sump since it doesn't point straight down. The cure is an old German pickup tube.
You have to check the oil hole alignment with the bearing shells. Not on a German case, though. That alignment doesn't change with age.
When your old German engine had good oil pressure, why would you waste your time measuring the oil piston bores at rebuild time?
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17758
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: help with engine cases
If you are using a German case look at the case number as I understand it, there are some cases that are not that good for other than stock use.
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SC3283
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:10 am
Re: help with engine cases
you better check EVERYTHING on ANY case!!!!....even the old German cases....decades of use and who knows how many hacks have had their hands into it and their claimed expert machine shop skills thrown at it...thats my point...remember back in the day, anyone owning a few tools thought they could fix a VW
70, 74 beetle, 81 Chenowth, 66 Fastback, 83GTI, 85GTI, 02 GTI, 72 Std Beetle
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7087
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
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SC3283
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:10 am
Re: help with engine cases
geez Bruce....really? so an old german case doesnt need cam bores or main bores checked? doesnt need checked for case spread? pulled studs? half azzed case savers? cyl decks checked? sump studs checked? dist drive bore checked for wear? thrust checked? checked for cracks on #3 or elsewhere? oil passage corrosion/blockage? etc etc these are all good cuz it is a german case??? uh huh...yah ok..so to use your quote above....go ahead waste your time building any engine from any case and not checking these things
...you build how you wish...others will build properly and with precautions and skill
since you want the last word....its all yours!
...you build how you wish...others will build properly and with precautions and skill
since you want the last word....its all yours!
70, 74 beetle, 81 Chenowth, 66 Fastback, 83GTI, 85GTI, 02 GTI, 72 Std Beetle
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17758
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: help with engine cases
Congrats on getting a good case.
As near as I can tell there are three types of engine builders: Good, Bad and Lucky! I have had engines from the first two and I may have been lucky a couple of times myself even though I pretty much aware of how to check things out. The good ones check everything out including checking surfaces, tanking then blowing the oil galleries then "miking" and fitting the parts together. As I said before everything, and that is not just limited to engines, has tolerances and is/should have those tolerances checked... no matter. I once bought a part (so long ago I don't remember what is was now) and it didn't fit so I took it back; the owner of the business verified it was off so we checked his whole shipment and there was only one "marginally" usable part in it. The manufacture/supplier soon went out of business.
When checking surfaces a known flat straight edge is used along with a flashlight and feeler gauge especially checking the mounting surfaces along holes. This is to check and see if bolts were over tightened if so the surface(s) can have a hump in it as the metal has been stretched some but not enough to "pull the threads out". The same it true with studs.
If an out of tolerance part is installed, lets say the holes are off so the studs cause a problem installing the part or the surface that the bolt head or nut ride on isn't flat within tolerance when tightening to spec the stud or hole in the block can be pulled out of the vertical tolerance. The longer the stud is the more obvious it can be visually but I still think it is worth the very fast and easy check.
Some of the off-shore stuff we are getting now days (and even some stuff done here at home) aren't up to the standards we hope and pay to get. You have to be very careful and STF is one good place to ask questions for answers and opinions.
Lee
My opinion is worth slightly less than you paid for it.
As near as I can tell there are three types of engine builders: Good, Bad and Lucky! I have had engines from the first two and I may have been lucky a couple of times myself even though I pretty much aware of how to check things out. The good ones check everything out including checking surfaces, tanking then blowing the oil galleries then "miking" and fitting the parts together. As I said before everything, and that is not just limited to engines, has tolerances and is/should have those tolerances checked... no matter. I once bought a part (so long ago I don't remember what is was now) and it didn't fit so I took it back; the owner of the business verified it was off so we checked his whole shipment and there was only one "marginally" usable part in it. The manufacture/supplier soon went out of business.
When checking surfaces a known flat straight edge is used along with a flashlight and feeler gauge especially checking the mounting surfaces along holes. This is to check and see if bolts were over tightened if so the surface(s) can have a hump in it as the metal has been stretched some but not enough to "pull the threads out". The same it true with studs.
If an out of tolerance part is installed, lets say the holes are off so the studs cause a problem installing the part or the surface that the bolt head or nut ride on isn't flat within tolerance when tightening to spec the stud or hole in the block can be pulled out of the vertical tolerance. The longer the stud is the more obvious it can be visually but I still think it is worth the very fast and easy check.
Some of the off-shore stuff we are getting now days (and even some stuff done here at home) aren't up to the standards we hope and pay to get. You have to be very careful and STF is one good place to ask questions for answers and opinions.
Lee
My opinion is worth slightly less than you paid for it.