Bought an Engine
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Bought an Engine
So I found an engine at a yard sale believe it or not, 1600 DP. Turned it over by hand and it had compression and the endplay checked out at .007, no noises or drag while turning, but it leaked oil EVERYWHERE! $100.00, with all the tin, generator, clutch, an old Monza muffler and good heater boxes.
What do I look for in rod play numbers when I tear this down to a short block?
I know it may have to come apart all the way, but at .007 end play...I'm thinkin that I don't need to split the case, but I might depending on what the inside looks like.
What do I look for in rod play numbers when I tear this down to a short block?
I know it may have to come apart all the way, but at .007 end play...I'm thinkin that I don't need to split the case, but I might depending on what the inside looks like.
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
- Marc
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Re: Bought an Engine
.007" endplay is a little out of spec, but since we don't know what it was when built it'd be rash to assume that it must be rebuilt - need to remove the flywheel & seal and see if there's any relative motion between #1 main bearing and the case when the crank is clunked to & fro. If motion's detectable but slight you might consider just peening the bearing flange to snug it up and resetting the endplay - but that's pretty sleazy, I wouldn't do it if you plan to spend any money on a decent valve job or new P&Ls but it'd probably still serve for another 20K or more.
If you aren't going to split the case but plan to remove the cylinders (to rering or just to reseal) IMO it would be crazy to not go one step further to replace the rod bearings - their condition should give you some insight into how the mains are doing. But first peer in and make sure the cam & lifters look like they've got some life left. If the lifters look like birdbaths and/or the rod bearings are showing copper you may as well split it.
If you aren't going to split the case but plan to remove the cylinders (to rering or just to reseal) IMO it would be crazy to not go one step further to replace the rod bearings - their condition should give you some insight into how the mains are doing. But first peer in and make sure the cam & lifters look like they've got some life left. If the lifters look like birdbaths and/or the rod bearings are showing copper you may as well split it.
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Re: Bought an Engine
Thanks Marc, I haven't decided what direction I will go yet. I may just replace all the seals and run it as-is. If its got 20K left on it that will get me 5+ years before I have to worry about replacing it. I haven't pulled the tin yet, so I don't know if it has case savers in it.
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
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- Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:57 pm
Re: Bought an Engine
I started to strip the engine today and now I'm REALLY leery about pulling it apart. I don't think this has ever been taken apart. There is no case savers in the case and it looks to be an original oil cooler. Someone at one time in its life removed the flaps and Tstat though.
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
- Marc
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Re: Bought an Engine
It's a legit AE case, albeit an early one sans the horizontal washboard ribs cast into the panel above the dipstick. In my experience these non-ribbed cases don't seem to hold up quite as well as the ribbed castings - I have nothing official to base this on, but I suspect that even though the alloy is AS41 it's not quite as good as the later cases' - could be essentially a DP configuration built on leftover 1970 B6 1600SP castings. Or, maybe it's because the early `71s had flat-top pistons for a slightly higher compression ratio and didn't have the bigger oil pump that goes with the later engines' 4-rivet cam. An-n-n-ny-who, still potentially decent stuff, just not my first (or second) choice for a hi-po engine. For a stocker it may be just fine, even without case-savers. The "sunken-stud" modification ("lower" length stud in the left-front-upper location) all but eliminates problems with the case unzipping at the base of #3, as earlier engines were wont to do.
If you only need to get 20K out of it, and don't mind it marking its spot a bit, don't tear it down any further just yet. First find out if it has the potential to be a "running-core" - I've gotten years of service out of plenty of those...just don't trust them on a long road trip - basic AAA membership is pretty cheap and covers tows up to 5 miles
Pull off the rockers, break all the head nuts loose (hit the threads of any that creak with WD-40) and then retorque to ~20, then ~25 lb-ft. Hopefully none will pull. Service the rockers/adjusters (you'll have to do this eventually no matter what), put 'em back on and adjust the lash to 2-3 times normal. Pull the plugs (inspect the threads closely for condition and for cracks that make it all the way to the plug-gasket surface), squirt some light oil in (Marvel Mystery Oil if you've got it, ATF/20W mix, etc.) and get it bolted to a trans case or starting jig so you can spin it (cheap fresh oil installed of course). Run a compression test and post the results.
If you only need to get 20K out of it, and don't mind it marking its spot a bit, don't tear it down any further just yet. First find out if it has the potential to be a "running-core" - I've gotten years of service out of plenty of those...just don't trust them on a long road trip - basic AAA membership is pretty cheap and covers tows up to 5 miles
Pull off the rockers, break all the head nuts loose (hit the threads of any that creak with WD-40) and then retorque to ~20, then ~25 lb-ft. Hopefully none will pull. Service the rockers/adjusters (you'll have to do this eventually no matter what), put 'em back on and adjust the lash to 2-3 times normal. Pull the plugs (inspect the threads closely for condition and for cracks that make it all the way to the plug-gasket surface), squirt some light oil in (Marvel Mystery Oil if you've got it, ATF/20W mix, etc.) and get it bolted to a trans case or starting jig so you can spin it (cheap fresh oil installed of course). Run a compression test and post the results.
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Re: Bought an Engine
First I have to get it on the stand to scrape and clean the years off of it and see if it has the "sunken-stud" on #3. It has oil in it and it doesn't smell to bad, so I believe that it was a running engine when pulled. I will get it cleaned up a bit and do the inspections that I can and run a comp check to see where its at. I have fogged the cylinders with WD40 already and have an ATF mix already so when I get it on the stand I will soak the cylinders for a bit after draining the oil and see if there is anything in the screen.
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
- ProctorSilex
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Re: Bought an Engine
I have been working on an engine that was running when pulled from a Ghia that I bought. I am putting it into a slightly better condition (debatable) Beetle. I thought it was a pretty good engine because it ran so well. The big problem with it that I did not discover until I was putting the heads back on: one of the cylinders is pitted like it got water in it from sitting. I realized then why the right head was so dirty while the left head was so clean! Combine that with the missing thermostat and associated hardware and I have one simple, cheap, and quick project turned into a big pain in the arse. Fortunately, I have most of the parts (somewhere). I am going to swap the bad cylinder and put in new rings then compare the deck height (before and after) to make sure that the replacement fits.
I would be happy with 20k miles too. I do not have anything to add. I just wanted to chime in that I am in a similar boat (or was until it got bad). Good thing these engines are forgiving! I hope yours goes better than mine.
I would be happy with 20k miles too. I do not have anything to add. I just wanted to chime in that I am in a similar boat (or was until it got bad). Good thing these engines are forgiving! I hope yours goes better than mine.
- Marc
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Re: Bought an Engine
When changing just one jug, be sure to check that its installed height is identical. Snug both cylinders down with a couple of nuts and stacked washers/big nuts/wristpins (by the rim, not the fin) and place a straightedge across them - hopefully it'll contact at four points, but if not you can play with base shims/gaskets to minimize the discrepancy...for a patch job, the piston deck being off a little is nowhere near as important as having the head seal well.
- ProctorSilex
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Re: Bought an Engine
I plan to try a straight edge too but I do not know how good any of my cheap/old rulers are. I figured that if the deck height is close to before, it would indicate the height being close too. I might end up replacing both on the one side with barrels from the same side of another.Marc wrote:When changing just one jug, be sure to check that its installed height is identical. Snug both cylinders down with a couple of nuts and stacked washers/big nuts/wristpins (by the rim, not the fin) and place a straightedge across them - hopefully it'll contact at four points, but if not you can play with base shims/gaskets to minimize the discrepancy...for a patch job, the piston deck being off a little is nowhere near as important as having the head seal well.
Thanks
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Re: Bought an Engine
I picked this engine up for cheap and am trying to figure out a direction, so feel free to give an opinion.
Since my last postings on this engine it has been comp tested and run in a car...here is the known;
1. Stock and never been rebuilt...vintage 1971-72
2. Has .007 end play
3. Compression is, 1-128lbs/2-131lbs/3-125lbs/4-130lbs cold
4. It runs fine, is quiet, and has a smooth idle
5. Has been sitting for a LONG time
The goal is to get a year or 2 out of it (7K-10K miles) while I build a nice 1914cc engine. I have a good core engine that needs to be rebuilt for that project. The car is my Ghia, 71, decent condition, stock for now.
1. Would you run it to have a driver?
2. Since it has no case savers I am hesitant to pull the heads, that being said it needs a reseal and the pushrod tubes look to be leakers. Take the chance or get expandable tubes and replace the rest of the gaskets?
The pictures;
Discuss
Since my last postings on this engine it has been comp tested and run in a car...here is the known;
1. Stock and never been rebuilt...vintage 1971-72
2. Has .007 end play
3. Compression is, 1-128lbs/2-131lbs/3-125lbs/4-130lbs cold
4. It runs fine, is quiet, and has a smooth idle
5. Has been sitting for a LONG time
The goal is to get a year or 2 out of it (7K-10K miles) while I build a nice 1914cc engine. I have a good core engine that needs to be rebuilt for that project. The car is my Ghia, 71, decent condition, stock for now.
1. Would you run it to have a driver?
2. Since it has no case savers I am hesitant to pull the heads, that being said it needs a reseal and the pushrod tubes look to be leakers. Take the chance or get expandable tubes and replace the rest of the gaskets?
The pictures;
Discuss
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
- ProctorSilex
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:09 pm
Re: Bought an Engine
My Beetle's engine has case savers and a couple of them unscrewed when I took off the heads (obviously not the locking kind). I guess studs are a gamble no matter what.mountainkowboy wrote:2. Since it has no case savers I am hesitant to pull the heads, that being said it needs a reseal and the pushrod tubes look to be leakers. Take the chance or get expandable tubes and replace the rest of the gaskets?
I see oil on the head fin next to the cylinders. Does that indicate leaking rings? Mine looked like that on the two bad cylinders.
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Re: Bought an Engine
That's possibleProctorSilex wrote: I see oil on the head fin next to the cylinders. Does that indicate leaking rings? Mine looked like that on the two bad cylinders.
71 Ghia Coupe........For Sale
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
71 Super-Beetle Convertible.....returning to DD status
63 IH Scout 80 (beater)
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Re: Bought an Engine
I'd say run it, clean it up and reassemble and drive it. I did the same for my fasty at one point, and I drove it for two years while going to UTI, and it leaked a little but I was using alot of used parts I scrounged together. Do replace the pushrod tubes and seals, it makes all the difference.
- Marc
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Re: Bought an Engine
The stains on the bottom fin are most likely from compression leakage, all the more reason to retorque the heads...if a stud's gonna pull, better now than when it's in service. In the early stages, head leakage typically occurs when cold and as the engine warms/expands it gets better, but no leakage is acceptable since it tends to erode the seating surfaces - wait too long and retorquing won't be able to help any.
In my experience, all "repair" pushrod tubes are going to leak at the seals, it's only a question of how much. Since the compression's good and you don't need to get more than relatively short-term service from this one, I wouldn't bother with it unless you can pinpoint one or two that are leaking profusely - then just replace those ones, using quality high-silicon seals (white or red rubber with a slightly translucent/slick-looking quality, not the chalky-looking white or red junk found in most gasket sets). Because the repair tubes lack the corrugated ends which allow the stockers to seat the seals squarely, the seals are going to be compressed more on one side than the other and some leakage is almost certain. I've had better luck with the spring-loaded style than with the threaded aluminum type (be sure to put the small-diameter end towards the head in any case) ...YMMV.Marc wrote:...Pull off the rockers, break all the head nuts loose (hit the threads of any that creak with WD-40) and then retorque to ~20, then ~25 lb-ft. Hopefully none will pull. Service the rockers/adjusters...
- ProctorSilex
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:09 pm
Re: Bought an Engine
Whatever you do, don't put a lot of time into a tired engine. Just use it up. Carry a piece of cardboard to catch the oil if you have to. Just don't waste a bunch of time polishing a turd like I did!