181 cv to bus?

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PEPPE
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181 cv to bus?

Post by PEPPE » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:53 pm

does someone knows if the inner spline of the 181 are the same as bus?
i want to install them to a bay bus to achieve more driveshaft angles.

i have seen for sale the 181 cv. are these good or it is better a good used set?

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Marc
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Post by Marc » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:28 pm

Both have 33 splines and the width of the inner race is the same so they should interchange without problem. The 181 part is the same as 411/412 and Porsche 924/944, (oddly the P/N is 113 501 331D) and gets ~5° more angle than II because it has smaller balls & the cage is narrower with a larger I.D.
The outer race is 2mm wider but I don't think that should be an issue.

Used is used, without taking them apart and inpecting the wear it's hard to say what they'd be worth. I've seen new ones sell for anywhere from US$70-$150.

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e

Post by PEPPE » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:37 pm

is it ok out of a 924 turbo?

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Marc
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Post by Marc » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:16 pm

The way I understand it, 924/924T/924S/944/944S '77-'88 and 944T '86-mid`'87 all use the same CV joint.
I just put some 924T stub axles and brakes on my bug, and the flanges are definitely the same size as II.

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w

Post by PEPPE » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:28 pm

i helped a friend who did the same with porsche parts. we used type 1 stub axles and driveshafts on porsche rotors.

are the inner flanges of porsche usable? or we need 181 ones?
thanks

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Marc
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Re: w

Post by Marc » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:51 pm

PEPPE wrote:...are the inner flanges of porsche usable? or we need 181 ones?...
For the bus? No need to change final drive flanges (or stub axles).

If you want to switch a bug to 100mm CVs, you'll need 181 final drive flanges and 181 or 924/944 stub axles.

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e

Post by PEPPE » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:06 pm

yes it was a bug

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Marc
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Post by Marc » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:59 pm

I just got my rear suspension and brakes all done last week, haven't put a trans in yet - but I have the 181 flanges ready. Since I'm after strength more than angularity I was planning to use II CV joints. They (as well as 181s) have an inner race that's 4mm thicker than the Type I's, so I anticipate having to grind them slightly narrower for a proper fit on stock Type I half-shafts - but that remains to be seen, they may fit with the Belleville washers omitted.

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Kubelmann
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Post by Kubelmann » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:21 pm

Although the T-4 and Thing CVs have the same appearance and dimensions as a Porsche CV, they as oem parts are different. The Porsche CV is part number 944 331 901 The CV and axles are stronger than the T-4 Thing CV. So are the Porsche rear axles. If you compare them part to part you can see the greater quality in the metal (chromoly) to deal with the much higher hp of the Porsche compare to VW. The new T-4 and Thing CV are a dull black while the Porsche CVs are a shiny silver.

The inner flange from a Porsche trans is of no use to a VW person. The Porsche flange has a hole in the center and bolts to the trans rather than the 33 spline connection used in VW applications. These 100 mm CVs were used on Porsches as follows:
924 76-82
924 Turbo 80-82
924S 86-88
944 83-90
944 Turbo -86
944S 87-88

The axles from these cars will work only if it was from a manual transmission. The automatic trans had two different length axles as the trans is offset in the chassis.

To use a Thing, T-4 or Porsche Cv set up it is best to use Thing or T-4 inner trans flange and a T-4, Thing or Porsche stub axles. There are modified parts out there that will work but from my experience none of them are as strong or hold up as well as the Porsche 924/944 parts. The Porsche parts were designed to run on a car that has nearly 4 times the hp as a stock VW application. Although T-2 CVs will fit you will lose about 5 degrees of articulation. For a VW Thing this part is considered an emergency only application. If you surf the web you can find new Porsche CV kits which include CV boots, CVs and grease for $70 each.
This is one I found but have never dealt with the folks :
http://www.allzim.com/acatalog/CV_Joint ... _924S.html

After checking over 50 sets of Porsche CVS I have never found a bad used Porsche CV but have found plenty of bad Thing CVs. Torn boots are a fast death to any CV....

Remember that a T-1 stub axle will not bolt to a Thing CV because of the 100 mm wider diameter of the Thing CV. A bug CV is 94 mm.

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Post by Marc » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:45 pm

Kubelmann wrote:The new T-4 and Thing CV are a dull black while the Porsche CVs are a shiny silver....After checking over 50 sets of Porsche CVS I have never found a bad used Porsche CV but have found plenty of bad Thing CVs. Torn boots are a fast death to any CV....
I never gave much weight to the appearance, since I've seen plenty of replacement Lobro bug and Bus CVs that had that shiny finish rather than the black look of the original factory ones - and those shiny ones seem softer and faster-wearing. I've never taken any Porsche ones apart so I'll defer to your experience.
Question, though...if all you have is the Lobro P/N, how can you be sure if it's a 944 331 901 or a 113 501 331D? D'ya think anyone in the supply chain might be unscrupulous enough to substitute one for the other? :shock: ...could account for some of the range in price between retailers.
The 924T stub axles I just put in my car don't look any different than bug (other than the flange size, of course)...does that mean somewhere along the line the donor car had Thing stubs put in it? The local VW dealer's wrecking yard sells them interchangeably, although they do charge more if you ask for them for a Porsche :wink:

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Kubelmann
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Post by Kubelmann » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:37 pm

If you take a Porsche and a Thing axle and sit them side by side you will see that there are raised rings on the shaft of the axles. I was told by a old German trained factory guy that these rings indicate tensile strength and that the 924/944 axles are superior. I have taken both Thing and Porsche axles down to bare clean metal and the difference is viewable. Also the original Porsche CVs have a different part number than the T-4 Thing CV. I have gotten all of my Thing/Porsche CVs and other parts directly from cars so I know where they came from. This is a long debated issue as to whether the Porsche parts are in fact superior. If you can find a Porsche in a bone yard and the folks are not too proud of the parts they are a great deal. I have also pulled a good number of these parts from totaled parted out cars in folks yards. I have not found any Things laying around that you could salvage these rear parts from. I have also never gotten any 411/412 parts. I am unsure if the stub axles are any different. I currently have a fair collection of Thing and Porsche rear diagonal arms and I prefer the Porsche arms over the Thing arms. One advantage for sure is that htye are at least ten years newer parts. I have a set of late model aluminum Porsche arms that I am putting on my Thing road car. I really like those. If you use the Porsche 944 rear disk brake set up you gain nearly 2" in rear track. I also have 5 x 130 front disc brakes. I am running Porsche cookie cutter wheels. It makes for a nice set up.

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Post by 51MAN » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:17 pm

Nice info...
DO the porsche boots work fine on bus/thing shafts? oh and will 924 etc shafts fit a bus etc? or too short?
Yeah, any idea of the LOBRO/GKN part number for correctness... seen someone selling bus cv's for a porsche!!!! :x

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Kubelmann
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Post by Kubelmann » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:18 am

Porsche 924/944, T-4, T-2 and Things share the same rear CV boots. They are all 100 mm in diameter.. Many prefer the Rockport CV boots as a far superior boot to the OE German unit. You can get them from scott Lyons at German Parts Supply... I have a huge supply of very good, used 100 mm CV boots. I also have new German 100 mm CV boots available..

Since the 924/944 (manual transmission) have the same dimensions as a T-4 and Thing axle, these parts will be too short to work as a bus (T-2) axle The 924/944 auto transmission has one short and one long axle. The inner (transmisson side) 100 mm flange on the 924/944 are useless for a T-1 or T-2 application. The Prosche flanges bolt tot he transmission while the VW flanges slide on splines and are held in palce with a circlip and seal

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Post by Bruce2 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:41 am

Kubelmann wrote: The 924/944 auto transmission has one short and one long axle.
Any Idea how long the short 924/944 automatic axle is?

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Kubelmann
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Post by Kubelmann » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:35 am

I sent a note off to a fellow 944 expert. He will sned me the lengths and I will post them here. I had a set but sent it off to someone...

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