1641 Turbo EFI Manx. 250Hp/337Nm Turbotub

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

Took more parts off.

Image

First time i saw how the hole for the storage tray looked like.
Not the cleanest cut....

Anyway, tried to fit the intercooler ImageImageImage

It doesnt sit as idealy as I tought it would.
Got some more positions to try but ran out of time.
Hardest part is making sure the IN and OUT are clear of the rear suspension plus lining it up with the existing hole in the body so the mouting bracket isnt like something out of a spaceship.

Its a crucial part of the build because all the routing of the turbo-to-intercooler pipes depends on it.

Lots of stuff to think about. ImageImageImage
Better to be blown than to suck!
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

If you are talking about the access on the left the mounting holes are a bit close to the edge of the cut out but the positive is that there is the corner relief holes at each corner which should stop cracking; someone knew what they were doing 8) .

Lee
Clonebug
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Clonebug »

rubenski wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:59 am Took more parts off.

Image

First time i saw how the hole for the storage tray looked like.
Not the cleanest cut....

Anyway, tried to fit the intercooler ImageImageImage

It doesnt sit as idealy as I tought it would.
Got some more positions to try but ran out of time.
Hardest part is making sure the IN and OUT are clear of the rear suspension plus lining it up with the existing hole in the body so the mouting bracket isnt like something out of a spaceship.

Its a crucial part of the build because all the routing of the turbo-to-intercooler pipes depends on it.

Lots of stuff to think about. ImageImageImage
Good luck on the Intercooler placement......I spent hours, days and years trying to come up with the best place to fit an intercooler.
I finally found one that would fit without expensive modifications and complicated plumbing.
I spent some time trying to come up with a placement down by the trans and never could solve the plumbing issue of running tubing from the turbo to the intercooler and back without it looking like **S and costing a fortune in aluminum tubing.

My IC placement is probably the cheapest way to do it if you put your turbo up high. It solves lots of issues of which oil drainage, plumbing and cost is all a part of it....not to mention the PITA it would be to have to work around all that plumbing to get at the engine parts if needed.

It...along with WI does a really good job of cooling the IAT's.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

Hi clone. I looked closely at your ic placement but i dont want it on top of the engine.
Its not that it wont fit under the back but its just more work than i anticipated.

No worries, i've got all winter!
Better to be blown than to suck!
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

There are markings on my intercooler for in and out.

Does it really matter how the boost flows?
Better to be blown than to suck!
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

Goddamn. Now that my original spot for the IC doesnt seem to work out i'm finding it verry hard to locate it somewhere else....

Better to be blown than to suck!
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

:lol: Cackle, cackle, cackle: welcome to the land of the glass buggies. Been fighting with similar problems on two of them. Stand back and take a deep breath, relax, get a can or bottle (the clear thinking limit is something less that a 6-pack) of "barley pop" then maybe build some cardboard mockups of what you are trying to install to place in different locations you think you might want to use. Get a couple of rolls of tape also as you probably will need that much.

Lee
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

Yeah, when in doubt, apply more alcohol.

Great advice ol' fog!!!



For now, some sleep will do.

Cheers!
Better to be blown than to suck!
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petew
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by petew »

I'd seriously consider a water/air IC and water injection. The reason I say this is tub buggies have very weird aerodynamics. Air is going all over the place and trying to get it to run properly throught an IC is a trial at the best of times. I know others are using fans, but even that is hard work to make efficient. I personally think Clonebug lucked out with his being so efficient. With an water/air IC you can run a radiator in front of the front beam and it should work well.

P.s. on the subject of top mount IC, Subaru is the only company that really had them work efficiently. Nissan tried one on the Pulsar GTiR and it was a disaster. Terrible heatsoak. The trick for Subaru was two thing; 1. making sure ALL the engine heat exited through the front wheel arches; 2. water spray set up for the high spec models. Both of those things rely on a really good air supply. If on the other hand you decided to run a big wing on the back, a top mount IC might work fairly well, but that might still involve fans (which I'm not a fan of, no pun intended).
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

Implementing another radiator, pump, water lines and bleed valves???

On a fibreglass buggy?

I dont know where to put everything now. Let alone all that other stuff....


Better to be blown than to suck!
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

H2... Ohhh isn't easy as distance and bend(s) can be a boogers to be dealt with on a bug much less a glass buggy. The same for ground clearance and heat inside of the buggy.

Electric water pumps vs. manual as distance or load can cause cavitation with the stock water pumps.

How well will water flow through a round vs. other shape of tube?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=how+does+ ... 30793d8bd9 (liquid)

Room up front for a radiator w/fan and a fuel tank? What about air flow inside of the hood much less the air flow on the outside of the hood. The south end of a north bound horse (the back of the buggy due to the open cockpit which might also be something causing turbulance) can have air flow problems also.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/a ... ng.545502/ (air... for the heck of it)

First you start with a driving a brick (a glass buggy on a stock or shortened pan) through the air then add additional complication to the mix both of which can drive you to STF or like places. :wink:

Lee
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petew
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by petew »

Ol'fogasaurus wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:21 pm H2... Ohhh isn't easy as distance and bend(s) can be a boogers to be dealt with on a bug much less a glass buggy. The same for ground clearance and heat inside of the buggy.

Electric water pumps vs. manual as distance or load can cause cavitation with the stock water pumps.

How well will water flow through a round vs. other shape of tube?
Lee, with all due respect I wanna call BS on a lot of that. Water is not that hard to work with. Let's settle a few things.
1. With a water IC you can mount the radiator anywhere without the restriction of intake pipe.
2. As long as you mount the pump near the lowest point of the system, cavitation is no issue. It also helps keep the weight down.
3. Water ICs are not the heat issue that engine coolant from a water cooled engine is. My intake temp never gets much above 100degF, which is as hot as many other things already in the car.
4. There are a myriad of cheap radiators and water pumps out there.
5. Any number of rubber, plastic or aluminium tubing/hosing could be used as the system is low temp and low pressure.


https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_nkw ... ntercooler
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski »

So, spent another afternoon trying to find a spot for the intercooler.

Negative.

Got back to the ol' interweb and found another one. New for 50€. So about 60$.

Its 3cm thinner but 5cm wider.
The core will be the exact same size as the cut-out in my body. (30x20cm)
Plus, the outlets are straight instead of the one I have now that has 45° outlets pointing up.

If it doesnt fit i can take it back and get a refund at the auto parts store.

Ps, im not gonna get a water to air IC.
If needed for high boost, i will use water/meth injection. I have all the parts on the shelf & tested.
Better to be blown than to suck!
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Pete the respect was dually noted 8) .

As a youngster I had way more cars than the average person so have had a myriad of experiences with "stuff" happening; a lot of the cars/toys were hashed together when I bought them. The reason I brought it up was the long runs of pushing a liquid, the dia. of pipe and and tight corners and the air pockets might be involved. I remember having to "burp" cars cooling system at al.

Yes, there are a lot of sizes of radiator available but remember to match the radiator's capacity to the engine and check the air flow through the radiator based on where it is to be mounted. Don't mount it flat as it doesn't seem to work. Two radiators don't seem to work well especially when mounted sideways to the airflow when the vehicle is moving (seen that more than once). The same with sideways mounting a single radiator as in either case, the addition of scoops don't seem to want to do the job well.

#2 is s/b correct but remember "Murphy's law". I've seem some creative cooling systems in my life; some work, some don't.

#3 is dependent on a lot of things. I always look at the worst situation (again, Mr. Murphy's discussion) then build back from there. Since I am not sure about a lot of things about your buggy's body and build it is it hard to say certain things for sure. Not all glass buggies are built with the same open areas or access. My black buggy for instance has no under hood access and it too low and flat to use for anything.
buggy7 (2) Truss bar note.jpg
Note: in this pix the radiator was going to be up front but things just got too complicated to do it and I was advised not to go that route. Even a radiator mounted in the rear seat would have been better and that isn't saying much either.

I have seen a few V8 VWs and not in rails plus there is a glass buggy in one of the "groups" of sand riders I know which has a Cologne V6 like mine in his; if I remember correctly, a short wheelbase Manx style buggy. I seem to remember it has (I just found out the other day that it is still around) cooling problems due to the "squeezed-in" cooling system. I haven't seen it for many years so I don't remember just what they did. The last I had heard they were planning on pulling the engine and trans to put in a bus then doing something else with the Manx style buggy.

#5 is probably correct depending on temps the system has to hold and the materials used. I used to hang out at a muffler/speed shop and another friend's radiator shop and have seen a lot of hashed together things come in to be fixed. It was there where the discussion on long runs under the car came up. Off-road this can be a problem too especially the vulnerability to bottoming out. Also, some of the "great radiators" turned out to be not that great either due to capacity, air flow through or moving the fluid through it.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

I forgot to mention that the cavitation problems was mostly with the stock style water pump itself when the bends in (especially) the lower pipe got to be too tight or the wrong combination or type of flex/bent pipe were used; problems on top were an occasional problem too. The size/diameter of the pipe also seemed to make a difference. On some brands of car engines different years, different models using the same engine had the upper outlet pointing in different directions to cure different problems but were interchangeable most of the time.

:roll: (shush...) I heard a secret many years ago that as far as Japanese cars go there is/maybe is a secret cross-reference book for identical/interchangeable parts P/N vs. P/N (company vs. company).

Lee

Add'nl: remember the time line I first ran into this kind of problem was back in the early 1970s so recall on it can take some times :roll: :twisted: . Putting engines into places where they didn't belong was still very common back then.
Last edited by Ol'fogasaurus on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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