water /meth

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

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GARRICK.CLARK
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water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:03 pm

Hi Guys.
So I have a water injection kit fitted to my motor. It has 1 jet per port.
My question is.
When to start spraying AND why.
Do I start to spray just before the pinging starts.

P.s. The pinging I do get is at 8 psi with no water spray. Showing 11 AFR on the gauge. Ideally I want to eliminate the ping by retarding the timing back from were it is now.
I have limited the timing but not locked it.

Clonebug
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Re: water /meth

Post by Clonebug » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Retarding timing retards power so ideally you want to stop pinging with the water injection.
Mix it 50/50 water and alcohol and the alcohol helps with cooling and octane to a certain extent.
I inject at 4 lbs and about 8 lbs with two different injectors to stop pinging at 8-10 lbs boost depending on ambient temps.
My ignition is down to 19 degrees at 22-24 lbs boost....
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

GARRICK.CLARK
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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:16 am

Thanks Clone.
I'll leave the timing as it is and see if the water stops the ping.
So on your motor, the water stops the ping from 8 lb boost up to 24 lb boost.
Sounds like FOR high boost.. Water INJ is a very much needed part of a turbo VW motor.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but My understanding is I don't need an anti vac valve behind each nozzle AS the nozzle fittings have them already, If they didn't have check valves my motor would suffer from an air leak from each port.

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Re: water /meth

Post by Clonebug » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:58 am

I could not run the boost I am without WI. I would be getting detonation between 8-11 lbs depending on the ambient air temp without it. While it can be tuned out by retarding timing in the high load, mid rpm area it is not too difficult to build a RELIABLE WI system.
I emphasize reliable because if it quits on you with really high boost and you don't hear the detonation your engine will suffer.......

I have a low water level light in the tank and a light for each stage of nozzle operation so I know the pump is getting power. They do not tell me if there is pressure but only that the pump is on and the second one is for the second solenoid getting power.

Here are the lights.

Blue is water pump and first nozzle.
Red is low water level.
Green is Second nozzle.
Amber is Launch control activated.

Image

I run a pump to two solenoid valves that are rated for vacuum to stop the fluid from getting sucked in when off boost.
I did have one valve that would leak in vacuum and it would suck the water right out of the tank. I replaced it.

Make sure you design it right to keep from having issues. The solenoids are reasonably priced on Ebay for about $25.00 each and are stainless or aluminum. Make sure they are rated for vacuum conditions.
I use two Hobbs switches to activate each injection nozzle at different boost levels. I pump a LOT of water into the engine after 10 lbs. to match the hp I am putting out.
The WI companies all have calculators that will tell you what size nozzle you need for your engine size, rpm and boost level.
After you get the nozzles you want to run them into a bottle to confirm the flow numbers per minute so you know how much water you are getting.

Get a good, high pressure, quality pump from one of the WI companies and their nozzles and the rest you can probably get online cheaper.

Here are my dual Hobbs switches each set for different pressures.

Image

Here is the valve I use. 12 volt Normally Closed (NC) with 1/8 NPT threads.

Image

With fittings

Image

All wired and installed.

Image

Here is a good valve on Ebay for only $15.00.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-8-Inch-Direct ... SwGrNZgPvs

The Hobbs switches.....adjustable from 1-10 lbs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOBBS-PRESSURE- ... 1438.l2649

I use 1/4 inch push loc hose since my pump only puts out 120 psi but I plan to upgrade this winter to a 300 psi pump and will probably upgrade the hose and fittings to handle that.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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rubenski
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Re: water /meth

Post by rubenski » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:10 am

Great info clone!
Better to be blown than to suck!

GARRICK.CLARK
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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:22 am

Yeah thanks Clone.

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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Clone.
Would you advice fitting an intercooler as well to our VW motors.
I have one with a fan that I might be able to fit on to mine. The pipe work would get a lot longer. Not sure how the longer pipe work will affect things.

Clonebug
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Re: water /meth

Post by Clonebug » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:41 pm

Intercoolers are very effective at cooling air and usually run in the 70% efficiency range. For Ex. if your ambient air temp is 100 degrees and your IAT's after the turbo are 200 degrees... the intercooler will bring it back down to 130 degrees.
The closer to ambient temp the boosted air is the more fuel you can add hence the more power you can make for a given boost level.

At 24 lbs boost my air temps out of the turbo would be over 260 degrees if the ambient inlet temp is 88 degrees F. The WI cools it back down to 130-140 degrees if I look at my logs.
That is a pretty good return on my investment......Now if I add an intercooler and WI imagine how low I could get the IAT's......

I have an intercooler in the works right now and think I can get it to fit.....I'm not sure how efficient it will be but for the cost involved if it lowerd my summer boosted inlet temps from 170 Degrees to 100-130 degrees with IC and WI combined I would be tickled pink.

Here is an air temp calculator for boost and intercoolers.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

If you have the room to install one I would definitely recommend it. I did WI because I could not figure out a reasonable placement for an intercooler that would be efficient enough and not look like crap.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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seabeebuggy
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Re: water /meth

Post by seabeebuggy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:28 pm

ping at 8 lbs is bad. You are not tuned or running 86 octane I can run 20 lbs boos on 94 octane and have no detonation. Pulling timing out is not bad and modern cars do it. Water should be a safety net at higher boost levels inter-cooler too. Meth adds power but just water works fine.If your tuned correctly a crossed the RPM range you don't need meth on a low boost car. I use water only and that is just when I'm duning in the sand. I push the car hard and Always on boost. water starts at 7 and second stage at 15. Chances are if you hear pinging you have some damage to the rings already. They weaken. if you start seeing blowby or oil pushing out on the engine then its time for new top end.

GARRICK.CLARK
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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:48 pm

Hi Seabeebuggy.
I have had the top end apart recently. It looks good to be fair.
I have had it Pinging a lot worse a long while back when trying to get dells to work. (Any ping I've experienced has had me come off the throttle immediately).
This time using an SU carb and getting rid of the Faulty petronix 3 and limiting the timing the ping is a lot less. Still there a lil bit. Hopefully I can test at the weekend. No other changes apart from switching the water on.
The Ping is at 8 psi, so I'll set the water to switch on at 6 PSI and have the water pump go to full power after 10. Fingers crossed It helps.

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seabeebuggy
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Re: water /meth

Post by seabeebuggy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:25 pm

what fuels are you using? Ho do you know you are at 11 AFR? is that under boot at 8lbs?

GARRICK.CLARK
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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:28 pm

Its 95 octane.I have a PLX wideband which reads 11 at 8 psi

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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:01 pm

Question for ya.
I have three 90 degree silicone bends from the turbo out pipe to the carb inlet on my blow through.
Would you try and get rid of them.

Clonebug
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Re: water /meth

Post by Clonebug » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:54 pm

I wouldn't worry about it......look at some of the OEM cars. they have lots of bends to get to an intercooler up front.

Just make sure you spray the water right above the throttle body or right below it if you have good solenoids in the vacuum areas.
Fluid doen't like to take corners as much.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

GARRICK.CLARK
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Re: water /meth

Post by GARRICK.CLARK » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:23 pm

Ok Thanks Clone.
I've got the nozzles in the manifolds, 1 for each port. There nearly a straight shot to the valve.
This week end I'll test.

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