Fitech

[Piledriver]

A TBI setup makes no sense unless you have a old lo HP NA V8 and you can't get a port FI manifold for it.
Its easy in the sense that it bolts on, and I understand folks wanting an "easy" button, but it has issues.

It "works" for some specific definitions of "works"...

I personally wouldn't consider it, esp for a boosted app, simply due to cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution issues make juiced or boosted motors go boom... the wet manifold issue is much worse on an upright cooled acvw due to the motor layout and resulting "interesting" manifold required, that is usually challenged to get the same amount of air, much less fuel to each hole. The draw through or TBI setups have to be set up pig rich to even keep the motor alive.

MS3 does have many advantages for boosted apps, it can alter fuel and timing map per cylinder (via large tables) and has a built in dual channel knock box, that can do programmable retard per cylinder.
You can have it shut the motor down or back to "safe" mode for overboost, AFR safety, fuel pressure variations, oil pressure---pretty much anything you like, and it has enough spare I/O to pull it off for most setups.
(and the CAN bus stuff is available if you need more)

Just for datalogging its worth having, and the SDcard setup can log most things at >400 hz with a fast sdcard, and everything at ~300hz.

Any ms3+ms3x std box unit can do the same, but the rtc and knock module are optional extras, and TunerStudio costs money, at least for the autotune etc. (The free to use "lite" version does work fine, but is missing some really cool stuff) TS registration is included in the price of the MS3-pro.

To do the same knock box thing on ms2 would need a J&S Safeguard, which uses the same knock chip...

[buguy]

OK so lets say I pick up Mario's ecu, what else will I need?
Also where would I get one of those $20 TB?

[buguy]

A TBI setup makes no sense unless you have a old lo HP NA V8 and you can't get a port FI manifold for it.
Its easy in the sense that it bolts on, and I understand folks wanting an "easy" button, but it has issues.

It "works" for some specific definitions of "works"...

I personally wouldn't consider it, esp for a boosted app, simply due to cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution issues make juiced or boosted motors go boom... the wet manifold issue is much worse on an upright cooled acvw due to the motor layout and resulting "interesting" manifold required, that is usually challenged to get the same amount of air, much less fuel to each hole. The draw through or TBI setups have to be set up pig rich to even keep the motor alive.

MS3 does have many advantages for boosted apps, it can alter fuel and timing map per cylinder (via large tables) and has a built in dual channel knock box, that can do programmable retard per cylinder.
You can have it shut the motor down or back to "safe" mode for overboost, AFR safety, fuel pressure variations, oil pressure---pretty much anything you like, and it has enough spare I/O to pull it off for most setups.
(and the CAN bus stuff is available if you need more)

Just for datalogging its worth having, and the SDcard setup can log most things at >400 hz with a fast sdcard, and everything at ~300hz.

Any ms3+ms3x std box unit can do the same, but the rtc and knock module are optional extras, and TunerStudio costs money, at least for the autotune etc. (The free to use "lite" version does work fine, but is missing some really cool stuff) TS registration is included in the price of the MS3-pro.

To do the same knock box thing on ms2 would need a J&S Safeguard, which uses the same knock chip...

Man I really appreciate you taking the time to post all that information. Unfortunately since I know nothing about EFI 75% of it means nothing to me. I don't really know what the next step is to learn. More reading I guess.

[Clonebug]

Here is the Microsquirt with an 8 ft harness to place it wherever you want.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/mic ... g-harness/

I do have a build page on my blow through project which starts with a Bocar 34 Pict and progresses through MS-1 EFI all the way to MS-2 EFI with three different turbos and the max of 22 lbs. boost with Water/Alcohol Injection.
It is a little long winded at 100 plus pages long but it does show what I went through to get where I am.
Page 41 is where the FI starts.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... &start=600

I have almost 26,000 miles driving with my turbo and most of it has been good. I have never been left on the side of the road where I had to be towed or picked up.
That is not to say I didn't have growing pains along the way.......

My initial EFI with a used MS-1 setup cost me about $1300.00 to put together but I did it over a period of time.

I have since upgraded to MS-2 and a second map sensor along with all matter of extras like launch control, dual table switching, Electronic boost control and more.

There are quite a few builds on here and most of us spend our time driving since the MS was installed and initially tuned.

The longest trip for me was 3500 miles over 13 days to California and back.

[buguy]

Thanks I will have a read through that. I have lots to learn.

[Piledriver]

Thanks I will have a read through that. I have lots to learn.

That's the way to go.

Don't pull the trigger on ANYTHING until you have a reasonable feel for what a good path forward is, realistic budget, where you eventually want to go, flexibiliy for future mods, your tech level, etc.

Support matters as well, if any of the MS vendors go Tango Uniform there are plenty of others happy to support you.
(as long as it a real MS, there are pirated copies out there)

[petew]

The great thing about EFI is everything is controllable and measurable. Even with the best carby engine you'll be second guessing what the motor is doing unless you have a NASCAR pit team supporting you.

I understand your fear and the amount of info seems daunting, but the MS forum and this forum are very good. LOTS of people have done what you're doing and they will help you a lot. The other thing being, there are heaps of hardware options now that didn't exist even 2 years back.

I threw away my dizzy and carb 18 months ago. Even with the current dramas I'm having I wouldn't give up the EFI for anything. I'd say it's saved my engine.

[buguy]

All makes good sense. I'm in no big rush because the car is in Iowa and I live in Florida now. I will be getting it soon and want to start collecting the parts I need. I need to call rancho and get a trans coming too. I love the idea of water/meth injection and a 2 step so I can let er hang out from a stop. I guess if I do a blowthrough with a CB hideaway header I could put my decklid back on too. I have to say I do like the look of a big 4bbl and turbo hanging out the back though! Not so great for those Florida pop up showers though.

[petew]

If I had my time again, I don't know if I'd used the hideaway header. It sits quite low and packs everything in VERY tightly. If you're header already works well, don't mess with it. You might like to wrap the exhaust and add a turbo blanket to keep heat out of the engine bay. I like proper intercoolers, but clonebug is getting good results with his meth injection. Adding the EFI will make it a LOT more tunable and safe.

[Piledriver]

If you really like to do the old skool look, you can absolutely use a draw through carb as a TB with port injection, with little > no downsides (as long as you have an actual carbon sealed turbo and the manifold provides uniform airflow)

Hell, you could stick a gutted SU or old bike carb on there.(as long as its big enough)

Its the fuel in the manifold that causes ~all the suck.

Port injection eliminates it, can be blow through or draw through, you just won't have the BOV PHusssh when you lift/shift. (saves the cost of a good BOV)

You could even put an intercooler in the plumbing as the fuel is downstream.
You can also certainly fire through a distributor, within its limits of effective timing range. (It has to be pointing the right way) A 4 tower coil pack (direct fire) will probably provide a hotter and more reliable spark tho.

I modded a Mallory Unilite with a timing wheel (added windows to the std shutter wheel) and it worked just fine, although I admit I was just using it as a trigger source, you could easily hook up a coil (VW makes a nice logic controlled single coil for use with a distributor)

I like having a rotor as a pointer for valve adjustments (what cylinder) , I'm getting too old to get up and down making sure I'm on the right hole.

[buguy]

I never thought of using a tb and port injection. That's kind of fun. You know the weird thing with my set up is that it actually worked pretty well. I had/have an off idle (just barely) stumble. Other wise it runs great. Always starts instantly and never dies. And that's with a 450 MECHANICAL secondary carb. The turbo is not carbon sealed though.

[Piledriver]

The carbon seal is a requirement of the draw through setup, to keep oil out of the intake.
The efi couldn't care less, the WBO2 probably dislikes all the oil.

If you can add injector bungs to the existing manifold setup or end castings, it could be a pretty quick project, using almost everything you have. You could even go ignition only at first.

[rubenski]

Wich ones would you buy then? (Injector bungs) i took a look at the cb injection manifolds and damn those are expensive....

[buguy]

I don't know of any others besides CB

[rubenski]

You can add injector bungs to the existing manifold setup or end castings,.